Alevis are the lighter Turkish version of Shiites. Indeed, the Alevi traditions are mostly made up of Central Asian Turkic traditions. The Alevis are not fundamentalists like the Iranian Shiite Mullahs, and don't see scientific improvements as "infidel stuff". There are smaller branchs of the Alevis like the Bektashis and Mevlevis. Note that Bektashi was the official sect of the Ottoman Janissary Corps.

As I said before, Alevis are lighter and more tolerant than Shiites and fundamentalist Sunnis.

I just approved your post big sorry because the delay, simple didn't saw it.
I would take care by using the word "sect", it doesn't match to the correct translation because the term "sect" is in english-world very abrasioned as in turkish.

Alevis are the lighter Turkish version of Shiites. Indeed, the Alevi traditions are mostly made up of Central Asian Turkic traditions.

I think the two sentences are in contradiction with eachother. If the alevi tradition is mostly made up of Central-Asian Turkish cultural elements (especially in it's initial stage, every objective mind can observe this fact), why should it be then defined as a lighter Turkish version of Shiites? Those Shiites elements were adapted later when the Turkish tribes migrated from Central Asia through Persia (=adaptation of Shia-elements) into Anatolia.

I would define Alevism rather as a Turkish religion with synchronized islamic (primarily shia) elements.

Maybe needless to say, but an important distinction to make: anatolian alevism is dissimilar from Nusayri-alawism (this latter one is indeed one of the many sects/branches of Shiism).

Kind Regards,
HebronX

Well, consider the definition of the word:

sect (sĕkt)
n.
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

http://www.answers.com/sect&r=67

Isn't that exactly what Alevism is? A more liberal and moderate approach to Shi'ite Islam, with Sufi influences.

I would define Alevism rather as a Turkish religion with synchronized islamic (primarily shia) elements.


I fully agree with that.

The terms schism, branches and sects must not be interwoven with eachother. Example, the islam has two Great Schism: the Shiah (Shiism) and the Sunnites (Sunnism). Within these schism there are many branches/movements: in Shiism there are example the twelver-shiites (~Iran) and the nusayri-alawites (~Syria and the Southern part of Turkey). Within these movements there may be (due to local trends) different doctrines and thus (smaller) sects.

However, when it comes to defining something as islam(ic) it doesn't matter how many splitting ups there are, but if the divisions are from:
1. the same islamic foundation; and
2. make the same islamic basic principles (example, the 5 pillars of the Koran).

Nor 1, nor 2 is present in (anatolian) Alevism. So it shouldn't be classified as an islamic movement or sect. Every objective sociologist or anthropologist can easily conclude that Alevism has nothing to do with Islam, expecially not in his initial stage.

The fact that Alevism is defined as something islamic, has rather to do with political motives. In this case the islamic assimilation of the alevis by the Muslims. There is not 1 islamic country (including Turkey) where the human rights of non-muslims are fully accepted, recognized and respected.

The origins of Alevism seems to be disputed. I think it's safe to say it may be of Persian origin. That would explain the presence of non-Turkish Alevis in the Mid-East (like the Kurds).

The fact that Alevism is defined as something islamic, has rather to do with political motives. In this case the islamic assimilation of the alevis by the Muslims. There is not 1 islamic country (including Turkey) where the human rights of non-muslims are fully accepted, recognized and respected.


tron i'm finding this part of your arguement hard to understand what exactly are you trying to say here? are you claiming that Alevism is not a part of Islam? because if this is the case than i totally disagree with you.

it is true Alevis do not practise their beliefs in the same way as other muslims but this does not put Alevism outside islam.
from your arguement the message i got is this Alevis have been forced fot the sake of politics to accept islam than why i ask you has Alevis choosen to follow Hz Ali and the 12 imans rather than the main stream islam known as sunnism? wouldnt Alevis have been better off if they had attended mosques prayed 5 times a day and fasted during the month of ramadam rather than muharrem?

it is true Alevis do not practise their beliefs in the same way as other muslims but this does not put Alevism outside islam.

Most of the muslims (and lots of alevis) assume that alevism is a kind of islamic interpretation and that all the differences are a result of this. That is a false representation of things. In alevism there are (adapted) islamic elements, but this does not mean that alevism originated from islam or that is explicit islamic. Example, alevis don't go to mosques because the 4th kalief (Ali) was murdered there (that is improper reasoning), but the fact that islamic dogma's as islamic praying (and thus mosques) were never adapted by the alevis.


from your arguement the message i got is this Alevis have been forced fot the sake of politics to accept islam than why i ask you has Alevis choosen to follow Hz Ali and the 12 imans rather than the main stream islam known as sunnism?

Your question is wrong. Who says the alevis have ever followed Ali, hmm? (it is a Muslim-assimilation strategy, even the name 'alevi' isn't derived from the word 'ali', ever wonder how an importancy is given to the element fire/flames in alevism? Nothing to do with islam or the word alawi...). If the alevis would really follow Ali they were already attending mosques, reading the koran and other islamic dogma's (such as the shiites). What I observe is that alevis don't treaten Ali in another way as they do with other islamic clergy (Ali, Muhammed, Ibrahim etc.).

Under the Ottoman's, the alevis were redheads and heathens. Under Ataturk they became 'alevi-muslims', since the coups of the late 70s and begin 80s they became shiites. Since the 90s many 'dedes' atained State courses how alevism should look like, blurring alle the facets of Alevism with islamic elements. Stop letting the State and Muslims defining what you are and stand up for your identity!

tron.
what evidence do you have to support your arguement?
i also would like to know what you are, are you yourself and alevi? because from my understanding you are not an alevi. you are some one who has never attended a cem and never have spoken to an dede. you simply do not know any thing about alevis. you have simply read a couple of books about alevis and use this as the bases of your arguement. if you had attended a cem you would know how much us alevis respect and love the prophet and his family and the 12 imans. our cems our prayers and our beliefs are all directly linked to the prophet and Hz Ali. but you obviously do not know this beacuse the sociologists which you have been reading the works of have clearly not written anything about it.

there is absolutly no reason to assume that the term 'alevi' derives from the term 'alev' (flame). us Alevis do not worship fire. but obviously you do not know this because you dont know much about the alevi faith.

your arguements are based on books written by westen writters who choose to study our religion from social perspectives and only answer questions as such 'where do alevis stand socially?'. what these western writters fail to study is our actual beliefs. unlucky for you sociologists can never truelly understand our culture. studyin the way we live will not give such sociologists an insite to our beliefs.

A typical trate which is seen amongst most western researchers is the assumption that non-western cultures are inferior to their own. these writters tend to pity the culture which they are studying. this can also be seen in your arguement you and the authors of the books which you have been reading view Alevis as a community so pitiful and inferior that we dont even know our own beliefs. you in your arguement clearly critize Alevis as a community which have lost their own identity amongst all the suffering which they have experinced throughout history.

my advice to you will be to purchase yourself a book based on the alevi beliefs which comes from religious perspectives and not social. this may be hard to do as there are not many books written in English or any other language which can example the Alevi beliefs.
please do not bring upon yourself the duty of trying to liberate Alevis. it is true we are an oppressed community but this oppression has not have the outcome which you think it has.

I'm agree with Canan's entry the term Alevi coming from the islam prophet's nephew Hz. Ali (like Musevi from Musa, Isavi -> Isa, Emevi etc.).
But the element flame/fire have a very important role by the alevis an example: you shouldn't extinguish a fire-place (let it burnout) and most of the alevis burning a candle every thursday. And that can be the reason of the misunderstanding like "tron" says the word alevi coming from alev (fire).

tron.
what evidence do you have to support your arguement?



there is absolutly no reason to assume that the term 'alevi' derives from the term 'alev' (flame). us Alevis do not worship fire. but obviously you do not know this because you dont know much about the alevi faith.


All my sayings and descriptions are based on strictly logically arguing and objective observing the facts. I already have given you the arguments. Yours however do not stand.
Of course alevis do not worship fire (as far as I know in no culture fire is "worshipped"), but in the alevi-religiosity (alevism) fire plays an important role. Imagine the cems where they light a fire. During the cem this fire may not put out. In the cultus of many alevi-groups there is even a sema around this fire. All this has a specific religious and symbolic meaning.


your arguements are based on books written by westen writters who choose to study our religion from social perspectives and only answer questions as such 'where do alevis stand socially?'.


That is not true. The best studies that describe alevism as a Turkish religion with adapted islamic elements, come from Turkey! However, most of these scientist and scholars are censored. You will hear only those that share the same opinions like persons as you.
Western studies however are very biased, I agree with that.

I'am an older alevi, so I now what is playing around for a long time.

Thank you for your thoughts and all the best!

All my sayings and descriptions are based on strictly logically arguing and objective observing the facts. I already have given you the arguments. Yours however do not stand.
Of course alevis do not worship fire (as far as I know in no culture fire is "worshipped"), but in the alevi-religiosity (alevism) fire plays an important role. Imagine the cems where they light a fire. During the cem this fire may not put out. In the cultus of many alevi-groups there is even a sema around this fire. All this has a specific religious and symbolic meaning.



That is not true. The best studies that describe alevism as a Turkish religion with adapted islamic elements, come from Turkey! However, most of these scientist and scholars are censored. You will hear only those that share the same opinions like persons as you.
Western studies however are very biased, I agree with that.

I'am an older alevi, so I now what is playing around for a long time.

Thank you for your thoughts and all the best!

Well, as an Alevi, I should thank you for making me recognize that "fire" has a far greater magnitude than Ali in my own faith. As such an extend that eventually the word Alevi is derived from the turkish word "Alev" but not Ali.

You might be a former one, but what I see is that you heavily rely on Alevi hating opinions and sunni slanders or arrogant western studies. I haven't seen such a practice with fire among us. I have never come across an Alevi teaching that is giving the slightest importance to fire. (btw, I would like to see the source of your claims)

The only explanation that comes into mind here is that you must have been mixed up between Alevism and Newroz celebrations.

Well, as an Alevi


What kind of alevi? For most people the words alevi and shia are almost synonymous with eachother. But there is an enormous difference between the Anatolian-alevis (Kizilbas = redheds), Bektasi-alevis (Sufi-islamic), Nusayri-alevis (Shiism), Caferi-alevis (Shiism), Iranian Twelver Shia (Shiism). Especially in terms of (ethnical and religious) origin.

Beside that, Anatolian Alevism is very complex and versatile. The religious practices of the Anatolian-alevis are mutually divergent. On a smaller scale this also counts for the other groups. Example, Nusayri-alevis in Hatay/Turkey have religious practices that differ with that of those living in the Northern of Syria. This has to do with the vertical conditions the State imposes to his residents. Economic conditions and globalization also play an important role, image thus a western lifestyle. This is why Tron also gives a correct representation of things. Due the vertical State conditioning many anatolian-alevis have grown to a more shia-islamic form of alevism and have identified themselves with that.

But all may call themselves alevis! So it is not surprising when one alevi starts about the importancy of fire (Kizilbas), while the other has never heared of that and emphasizes the role of ali (shia).
It is very plausible that the word 'alevi' is thus reduceable to different sources.



(btw, I would like to see the source of your claims)


Forget the sources. See it with your own eyes! Just visit a cem of an anatolian alevi-population where these elements play a role. There are many of them.



The only explanation that comes into mind here is that you must have been mixed up between Alevism and Newroz celebrations.


That is also not the case. Many Anatolian-alevis have religious conceptions that have nothing to with Islam but are as such related to their central asian Turkish origins. Reincarnation is another example of that: older anatolian alevis will know that, but the younger ones have identified themselves with the notion of the islamic hereafter (which is an arabic upshot [arabic adaptation] of the Jewish hereafter). Religions and religious practices have all to do with cultural adaptations, be it imposed or freely adapted!

What kind of alevi? For most people the words alevi and shia are almost synonymous with eachother. But there is an enormous difference between the Anatolian-alevis (Kizilbas = redheds), Bektasi-alevis (Sufi-islamic), Nusayri-alevis (Shiism), Caferi-alevis (Shiism), Iranian Twelver Shia (Shiism). Especially in terms of (ethnical and religious) origin.

Was that the discussion?


Beside that, Anatolian Alevism is very complex and versatile. The religious practices of the Anatolian-alevis are mutually divergent. On a smaller scale this also counts for the other groups. Example, Nusayri-alevis in Hatay/Turkey have religious practices that differ with that of those living in the Northern of Syria. This has to do with the vertical conditions the State imposes to his residents. Economic conditions and globalization also play an important role, image thus a western lifestyle. This is why Tron also gives a correct representation of things. Due the vertical State conditioning many anatolian-alevis have grown to a more shia-islamic form of alevism and have
identified themselves with that.

I see no relevance here either??


But all may call themselves alevis! So it is not surprising when one alevi starts about the importancy of fire (Kizilbas), while the other has never heared of that and emphasizes the role of ali (shia).
It is very plausible that the word 'alevi' is thus reduceable to different sources.

Firstly you should know that both kızılbaş and shia emphasize on the role of Ali. There is no such alleged importance of fire in Alevism. Do not try to project wrong identifications here.

Forget the sources. See it with your own eyes! Just visit a cem of an anatolian alevi-population where these elements play a role. There are many of them.

Why should I ? My own eyes haven't witnessed any fire in any Cem. There are none of them.

That is also not the case. Many Anatolian-alevis have religious conceptions that have nothing to with Islam but are as such related to their central asian Turkish origins. Reincarnation is another example of that: older anatolian alevis will know that, but the younger ones have identified themselves with the notion of the islamic hereafter (which is an arabic upshot [arabic adaptation] of the Jewish hereafter). Religions and religious practices have all to do with cultural adaptations, be it imposed or freely adapted!


What I am trying to point out here is that neither Alevis nor their names have any association with fire. On the other hand your statement about older Alevis does not count here. Do you really think that those people used to call themselves as Alevi although they hadn't had met shia islam during their central Asia residing days ?. From my point of view it wouldn't be right to consider fire worshipping, reincarnation believeng people as Alevi.

What kind of alevi? For most people the words alevi and shia are almost synonymous with eachother. But there is an enormous difference between the Anatolian-alevis (Kizilbas = redheds), Bektasi-alevis (Sufi-islamic), Nusayri-alevis (Shiism), Caferi-alevis (Shiism), Iranian Twelver Shia (Shiism). Especially in terms of (ethnical and religious) origin.
Was that the point we were discussing?

Beside that, Anatolian Alevism is very complex and versatile. The religious practices of the Anatolian-alevis are mutually divergent. On a smaller scale this also counts for the other groups. Example, Nusayri-alevis in Hatay/Turkey have religious practices that differ with that of those living in the Northern of Syria. This has to do with the vertical conditions the State imposes to his residents. Economic conditions and globalization also play an important role, image thus a western lifestyle. This is why Tron also gives a correct representation of things. Due the vertical State conditioning many anatolian-alevis have grown to a more shia-islamic form of alevism and have
identified themselves with that.
I see no relevance here either??

But all may call themselves alevis! So it is not surprising when one alevi starts about the importancy of fire (Kizilbas), while the other has never heared of that and emphasizes the role of ali (shia).
It is very plausible that the word 'alevi' is thus reduceable to different sources.
Firstly you should know that both kızılbaş and shia emphasize on the role of Ali. There is no such alleged importance of fire in Alevism. Do not try to project wrong identifications here.
Forget the sources. See it with your own eyes! Just visit a cem of an anatolian alevi-population where these elements play a role. There are many of them.
Why should I ? My own eyes haven't witnessed any fire in any Cem. There are none of them.
That is also not the case. Many Anatolian-alevis have religious conceptions that have nothing to with Islam but are as such related to their central asian Turkish origins. Reincarnation is another example of that: older anatolian alevis will know that, but the younger ones have identified themselves with the notion of the islamic hereafter (which is an arabic upshot [arabic adaptation] of the Jewish hereafter). Religions and religious practices have all to do with cultural adaptations, be it imposed or freely adapted!

What I am trying to point out here is that neither Alevis nor their names have any association with fire. On the other hand your statement about older Alevis does not count here. Do you really think that those people used to call themselves as Alevi although they hadn't had met shia islam during their central Asia residing days ?. From my point of view it wouldn't be right to consider fire worshipping, reincarnation believeng people as Alevi. The word "alevi" emerged right after their acquaintance with islam and definitely not earlier.

What kind of alevi? For most people the words alevi and shia are almost synonymous with eachother. But there is an enormous difference between the Anatolian-alevis (Kizilbas = redheds), Bektasi-alevis (Sufi-islamic), Nusayri-alevis (Shiism), Caferi-alevis (Shiism), Iranian Twelver Shia (Shiism). Especially in terms of (ethnical and religious) origin.


Was that the point we were discussing?


What I and some others tried to make clear was the following: people that identify themselves with alevism, as an alevi, may be of different origin and have different religious practices. If you say that you had absolute no notion of the importancy of fire in the alevi-religiosity, this only indicates that you differ from the Anatolian-alevis. And that really doesn't matter! You are however on the wrong track if you put your alevism above of that others or denies those differences.



Firstly you should know that both kızılbaş and shia emphasize on the role of Ali.


The anatolian-alevis emphasize "more than" only islamic facets such as Ali. The Shia however "only" emphasize islamic facets such as Ali. Beside that, and now comes your so sought-after interpretation, the anatolian-alevis emphasize/interprete these islamic facets in another more liberal way than the Shia.



Why should I ? My own eyes haven't witnessed any fire in any Cem. There are none of them.


That's a pitty. Maybe one day you will see a cem with elements like fire. Have seen lots of them (I'am an anatolian alevi myself).



From my point of view it wouldn't be right to consider fire worshipping, reincarnation believeng people as Alevi. The word "alevi" emerged right after their acquaintance with islam and definitely not earlier.


You are defining and experiencing the world too much through your axiom.
We already said that those fire-aspects have nothing to do with 'fire worshipping' and that it is etymologically likely that the notion of the word 'alevi' is reducable to the word fire in the case of the anatolian-alevis.
You and persons like you should try to approach the world and cultural processes on a more objective basis.

You might be a former one, but what I see is that you heavily rely on Alevi hating opinions and sunni slanders or arrogant western studies. I haven't seen such a practice with fire among us. I have never come across an Alevi teaching that is giving the slightest importance to fire. (btw, I would like to see the source of your claims)

The only explanation that comes into mind here is that you must have been mixed up between Alevism and Newroz celebrations.


i agree with this view.

in my eyes alevis are not fire worshippers. the only flame which can be seen in a Cem is that of a single candle, lit at the beginning of the cem with prayers. according to my knowledge the prayer said when lighting this candle include the names of the prophet, Hz Ali and his family. (not some accient fire God)

i like to remind those people who claim that sema is sometimes done around a burning flame that this is only done in music videos. this use of flames in music videos dont symbolise fire worshipping but instead refer to sivas madimak hotel.

What I and some others tried to make clear was the following: people that identify themselves with alevism, as an alevi, may be of different origin and have different religious practices. If you say that you had absolute no notion of the importancy of fire in the alevi-religiosity, this only indicates that you differ from the Anatolian-alevis. And that really doesn't matter! You are however on the wrong track if you put your alevism above of that others or denies those differences.

The anatolian-alevis emphasize "more than" only islamic facets such as Ali. The Shia however "only" emphasize islamic facets such as Ali. Beside that, and now comes your so sought-after interpretation, the anatolian-alevis emphasize/interprete these islamic facets in another more liberal way than the Shia.

That's a pitty. Maybe one day you will see a cem with elements like fire. Have seen lots of them (I'am an anatolian alevi myself).

You are defining and experiencing the world too much through your axiom.
We already said that those fire-aspects have nothing to do with 'fire worshipping' and that it is etymologically likely that the notion of the word 'alevi' is reducable to the word fire in the case of the anatolian-alevis.
You and persons like you should try to approach the world and cultural processes on a more objective basis.

My axiom ? You stick to rubbish sociological stuff, obviosuly written by high cultured Mr. "Unaware of Alevis" and make guess-work such as "etymologically likely that the notion of the word 'alevi' is reducable to the
word fire in the case of the anatolian-alevis".

If it is my axiom, I urge you open a thread here, and ask every Alevi forum member about the likelihood that this very notion is derived from the word fire, or the preciseness whether it is derived from Ali.

I don't know from which source you have taken this fire issue. But it is for sure a single-sided statement. Alevis are named for what they have faith in, and that is what they are called(Ali supporter).

If you are an Alevi, than you should refrain from people continously trying to associate Alevis with weird and belittling stuff.If you have seen lots of fire containing Cems, than it is your case, your exception.No need to make any induction here.

I am an east-anatolian alevi. I never heard from any of my alevi friends from west, middle or south anatolia that they have such fire applications in their religious services.

Bla bla...


You and the others are not really arguing Ester. It are only reproaches as it had something to do with biased western and Turkish studies we are reading. So for me this discussion is over. Kind Regards.

I agree with Canan. If you take away all the Islamic influences in Alevism, what you have left are pretty much universal beliefs, such as humanism. There's no evidence to suggest that Alevism originated in pre-Islamic Turkey.

I agree with Canan. If you take away all the Islamic influences in Alevism, what you have left are pretty much universal beliefs, such as humanism. There's no evidence to suggest that Alevism originated in pre-Islamic Turkey.

what about saz? as you know shamanizm has a saz while they were doing their cem? there is no other groups do it with saz.

Saz (also named as Bağlama) is an instrument in alevis folk music and used from "Aşık" in Cems to accompany Dede's pray. I don't know how does it in shamanizm.

what about saz? as you know shamanizm has a saz while they were doing their cem? there is no other groups do it with saz.


do you have any evidence to support this assumption?

how have you come to such conclusions? are they your own claims or are you reading these off somewhere?

Saz (also named as Bağlama) is an instrument in alevis folk music and used from "Aşık" in Cems to accompany Dede's pray. I don't know how does it in shamanizm.

Yes. I think, baglama is not with about Shamanism. I know, Alevis have createn baglama in Anatolia. And baglama is with about Alevi culture and used from Asik in Cems...

I was wondering is there any book about Alevilik?

I was wondering is there any book about Alevilik?
Are you joking? What a kind of an answer do you especting? Sure are there much written sources about alevism. You can try a little search on amazon.com kitapyurdu.com idefixe.com (online) or go to different alevi-festivals and naturally in libraries.. or simple in bookstores.

The great instrument saz or baglama is used in cem ceremonies to accompany the collective prayers (but it is not only used for this purpose). We alevis don't need another language, i.e. Arabic to pray to God, we do it in our native language, in Turkish. We neither need a special room nor occasion to pray to God, we can pray whenever we want to and where we want (without going to a mosque). So, with the saz, we sing traditional folk songs and prayers, we exchange our opinions and pass our experiences forward to the next generations.

I was wondering is there any book about Alevilik?

Hi again! (Hope I did the quoting right?!) Why don't you have a look at this area of the forum:

"Etkinlikler / Kitap ve diğer tanıtımlar"
Enjoy...

I was wondering is there any book about Alevilik?
I put an anouncment in 'kitap tanıtımı'. Visit, you will see many books and articles. Even english, german, french... you can find many sources..

In my view, there is no one Alevism, just like any other belief. It is not founded by a particular prophet, nor does it have any Holy Scriptures or commandments. It is a fusing of different cultural values and views. Therefore, it would be improper to give a concrete defintion.

As an Alevi residing in Britain, it has always been difficult to answer specific questions as nobody apart from Turkey seems to know what Alevism is and when you do try to enlighten people they become defensive. Why is this?

During GCSE, all we studied was the belief of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam (Sunnism). I had no choice but to respect their religions and even took part in an exam, but when it came to my beliefs I recieved the opposite reaction. Why is this? What do these major religions teach their followers in relation to other beliefs? Where is the respect? Why is there so much hatred, defensiveness and competition between religions and other beliefs?

I would appreciate your comments.

In my view, there is no one Alevism, just like any other belief. It is not founded by a particular prophet, nor does it have any Holy Scriptures or commandments. It is a fusing of different cultural values and views. Therefore, it would be improper to give a concrete defintion.

As an Alevi residing in Britain, it has always been difficult to answer specific questions as nobody apart from Turkey seems to know what Alevism is and when you do try to enlighten people they become defensive. Why is this?

During GCSE, all we studied was the belief of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam (Sunnism). I had no choice but to respect their religions and even took part in an exam, but when it came to my beliefs I recieved the opposite reaction. Why is this? What do these major religions teach their followers in relation to other beliefs? Where is the respect? Why is there so much hatred, defensiveness and competition between religions and other beliefs?

I would appreciate your comments.
Hello my dear friend or rather "can", dear friend sounds too cold to me ; ) welcome to our forum... You asked a very difficult question which I can't answer so easily. There have always been a lot of wars and so on BECAUSE of that huge competition, people have always tried to convert the minority group with all the power and cruelty you can think of. But our people have never been convinced by the sunni faith and this is good, though it is of course incredibly sad and hurting that so many people -OUR people- had to die for not being convinced and for not adopting another faith or rather way of reflexing their faith, but it is good [that our people have never been convinced] because then, we wouldn't be what we are. And we ARE special, we are tolerant, we are after freedom, we are modern (at least more modern than the sunnis) and we are HUMAN (by means of "INSAN").
Lots of love.

Hello Adi guzel Ali'm,

I thank you for your comments, they were enlightening, a word that I have grown fond of:).

The questions that I put forward previously were not simple questions that require simple answers, therefore, it is difficult to find straight answers to them. I guess with time people will begin to seek the truth and witness the purity and prosperity in our belief, that we mean no harm to anyone, physically or mentally.

I think it is always best to treat people, no matter their race, beliefs etc. as equals, even if they are so naive that they cant even see the truth. They are humans and it isn't right to segregate them from our lives and society as a whole.

If you maintain your humanistic values and morals then you will always succeed. This is one of my moto's:) What is your moto in life?

Shaman

If you maintain your humanistic values and morals then you will always succeed. This is one of my moto's:) What is your moto in life?

Shaman
Hi can!!
Yes, absolutely. This is a pretty good motto I think!! Well.... my motto is: Be what you are, be how you feel, do what you think is right -even if others don't like it- as long as you are "good" ( Eline, beline, diline sahip ol) and do no harm to others, ONE DAY the others will SEE what you are and they will regret treating you badly and they will feel ASHAMED... I am sure this day will come, maybe then WE won't be alive any more, but our children will experience this I am sure. It is already DAMN late, the sunnis are too late to recognise us as their brothers and sisters, but the day will come. They will see. And they will apologise to us. Now, they are still too blind, they keep too grimly at their own beliefs and above all, even if they already SEE what and how we really are (contrary to all their dirty prejudices and accusations), they are TOO PROUD to confess it. AT THE MOMENT...... But we will wait for that day to come. We have been waiting FOR 1,400 YEARS. And yet, we are not tired. WW WILL GO ON WAITING!!!

Write soon. Lots of love.

[quote=Adi güzel Ali'm]
'...the sunnis are too late to recognise us as their brothers and sisters...'


Hello Can,

I hear your cry, however, I think you should be very careful and try to steer away from making comments such as the above. I understand your anger and trust me I feel your pain as a fellow Alevi, but once you begin to talk like that you will realise that you are doing what people did to Alevis many years ago and to this day: prejudice, discrimination, unfair judgment and so on.

Furthermore, you have to remember that although it is an Alevi forum, those who are not Alevis also use this website, it will be disrespectful for them. Not all people of the same belief are actually the same, some are decent, even though it is a minority.

I mean no disrespect with my comments, just kind words for a fellow can.

Take care

Shaman

quote:...the sunnis are too late to recognise us as their brothers and sisters...'

Hello everybody,

First of all I would like to say that I'm very happy with this English forum, because sometimes I have problems with expressing myself in Turkish. I do understand, talk and write Turkish, but not as good as I wish to do. Because my main language is dutch. Although the Turkish forum is quiet a good way to work on my Turkish, it's actually a good practise for me. But still it's also nice to write in English! But anyway, I was reading the two stories above and I would like to react on the taken quote from Adi Guzel Ali'm. I don't believe that sunnis and alevis ever can live like brothers and sisters. That's impossible, even though there are also very good sunnis! I believe that these two groups can live next to each other, but I don't think they can live happily with eachother like brothers and sisters.Not that I don't want the sunnis and alevis to be like brothers and sisters, but I just don't believe that something like that can be true. Because there are so many differences between these groups and so many harm is done. I'm not saying this to insult people, I really don't, but this is just my experience. For example, I know a few very decent and nice sunnis, but still I feel some kind of emptiness..I can not help it!!!!

What is your motto in life?

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

(Mahatma Ghandi.)

In my view, there is no one Alevism, just like any other belief. It is not founded by a particular prophet, nor does it have any Holy Scriptures or commandments. It is a fusing of different cultural values and views. Therefore, it would be improper to give a concrete defintion.

In my view, and in the Alevi "theological system" that I represent, Alevism is islam itself. We accept all of the prophets, Muhammad being the last, we accept the Quran even though we do not interpret as the Sunnis. We consider ourself belonging to the Caferi school and we DO have kinds of "commandments" (e.g. 4 kapi 40 makam, 7 farz 3 sünnet etc.). Another example: As an Alevi, I am not allowed to have sex before marriage and I am not allowed to convert to Sunnism.


As an Alevi residing in Britain, it has always been difficult to answer specific questions as nobody apart from Turkey seems to know what Alevism is and when you do try to enlighten people they become defensive. Why is this?

During GCSE, all we studied was the belief of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam (Sunnism). I had no choice but to respect their religions and even took part in an exam, but when it came to my beliefs I recieved the opposite reaction. Why is this? What do these major religions teach their followers in relation to other beliefs? Where is the respect? Why is there so much hatred, defensiveness and competition between religions and other beliefs?

I would appreciate your comments.

This is exactly our problem. People keep saying that Alevism = heresy, and Sunnis keep claiming to follow the true path of Islam. If we said that Alevism was true Islam, what kind of reaction would you then expect from them? What do you think the consequences will be for the average Alevi? How long will they be able to continue defending this faith?
As long as people beforehand have stated that Islam = Sunnism, the chances of Alevis compelled to accept that fact by time, will unfortunately rise.

As long as people beforehand have stated that Islam = Sunnism, the chances of Alevis compelled to accept that fact by time, will unfortunately rise.

I don't know. I understand the concern but I don't know. The hardline Muslim fundamentalists really appear, to me, as some alternate version of the same cookie-cutter Christian clone sort of people that plague the U.S. government. Different books and different hats but the same distorted ideals and violent ways of enforcing them.

Our government is powerful and they have massive control over publicly-viewed information, regardless of free speech issues, but it seems that the more people realize in and of themselves that they are not some sort of vile unnatural creature and that God is not some distant unaccessible old man in the sky ..the more they stray from this impossible and morbid version of the religion that these sorts brandish with their flags and guns and, in turn, such leadership. It's all very psychological, it comes in waves and it's sooo so important to keep the channels of communication open and the truth flowing between us all.

I speak, of course, of my country but people really are basically the same. They do what gives them peace and happiness, even if it means breaking some infallible commandment. I abandoned religion entirely until a book of Rumi's poetry happened to find its way into my life and I realized I was not alone.

And there is now a part of the world that is actively thinking globally, not separated by borders and policy. Not in thought and expression of that thought. Nature has a way of protecting and sustaining those who walk in harmony with it.

So...I have hope.

Alevis are the lighter Turkish version of Shiites. Indeed, the Alevi traditions are mostly made up of Central Asian Turkic traditions. The Alevis are not fundamentalists like the Iranian Shiite Mullahs, and don't see scientific improvements as "infidel stuff". There are smaller branchs of the Alevis like the Bektashis and Mevlevis. Note that Bektashi was the official sect of the Ottoman Janissary Corps.

As I said before, Alevis are lighter and more tolerant than Shiites and fundamentalist Sunnis.

This is really a true approach to the subject.The basic difference between Shias and Alawis,nowadays,there are no differences between Shias and Sunnas.Therefore we don't use the name of Shia,even though we come from Shia,too.Maybe we are connected to Shias but as Anatolian Alawis, we are geniune people than Shias.Because of the relioginal pressures in Iran,Shia seem closer to Sunnas rather than Anatolian Alawis.This is just my opinion of course.God bless us!Hızır helps us!