HELLO THERE!!!!:36_1_39:

BASICALLY what i'm trying to find out is what the advantages of being an Alevi is within a multi-cultural society that we live in as-well-as how we use it in our everday life!!

I personaly think that being an Alevi is useful in many ways. For example, we attain alot of how rationality and morality from the three basic rules of : ELinE, beLiNe, diLInE sayip oL.

This i think being the key advantage!

I think that Alevisim is advantageous in many other ways....BUT HOW ABOUT YOU...WhaT aRe ThE KeY aDvANtaGES Of AleVisM FOr yOu?

Dear Leyla,

For me the advantage is that Alevisim is a openminded and free believe. What I especially like is the humanistic approach and the equal treat of man and woman.

Take care,

Isik

Some call it a religion, but I call it a path, Alevism is a path on which we personally get to connect with our inner and our guidances. we find the code of life that s been hidden from us. we find the true meaning of life and death. one cannot look at it simply as a teaching we can learn from books and get to boast about by telling what it means. it is an experience that teaches us to reach the souls around us and display to them how best a human could love another humanbeing and be loved back.

Alevism , in short, shows us that love of humans is equal to love of God, for God created us out of love.

and I cant possibly look for advantages and disadvantages of it, this would be so typically materialistic .

I heard once a great man's description of love. love is an illness you dont wanna recover from , an addiction you cant quit, and a pain you are willing to endure.
for alevilik is all about love for the living, I would say, we cant really have any disadvantages attached to it. that would maybe open our eyes to the physical world, but close our heart to the spiritual world.

was I too philopshical ? :)

isi uyeden alinti: was I too philopshical ? :)

Dear isis,

No you did not. You explained it in a very elegant way I think. Thank you. If I should describe Alevisim in just one word, I would say: 'humane'. How would you describe alevisim in only one word?

Take care,

Isik

thank you too for your kind words.

Humane is all right, but you go around and ask anybody from any religion, they would say their beliefs are humane as well :)

this is where I get confused, if all of this religions are humane, and majority of human population tends to believe in God, why all the death and destruction ?

looking back on the history and seeing that Alevis have been hit but have not hit back, and I would choose two words to describe Alevism and its past, Pure and Innocent.

Isis, i agree with ur definition of what Alevisim is about. Pure and Innocent are very good words to describe a culture and philosophy that means no harm to anyone or any other culture. Isik is very right about alot of what she has claimed too, at the end of the day Alevsim is a from of enlightenment and spreading awareness, whether it be about equality of both genders, love or peace.....WE ARE MADE FROM LOVE AND SO LETS SPREAD IT!!! :)

WE ARE MADE FROM LOVE AND SO LETS SPREAD IT!!! :)
Wowwwwwwww, great words luv!! I totally agree with you!!
Alevism is beautiful. I am proud of being an alevi, I'm really lucky to be one. You can't choose your religion when you are born but you can be greatful. Greatful to God for creating you as you are. Alevis are tolerant, men and women are equal, as long as you believe in God and are a GOOD person, you are a jewel. There is no need to djust do what society wants you to do (mosque, etc...) just to PRETEND you are religious and good. You are good and you DO believe anyway, but you consider things differently, and you hav your own and other ways of interpreting your faith and that's ok. As long as you do no harm to anybody else, why can't you just live as you want? Why are you considered to be something worse?

We are tolerant and a lot more open-minded and modern than others, and that is what I AM PROUD of. We are not prejudiced, we just want our freedom, we just want brotherhood.

To start with I don’t agree with the term ALEVISM, and instead we should use BEING ALEVI! (well obviously thats everyones personal choice)

Advantages you say, well, personally I don’t categorise being Alevi, so there is no pros and cons for me. Hence I can say, without any doubt, being alevi is one of the most precious things I have in my life, its the light for me, and as long as that light is there I know no darkness can seize my life. It gives me the strength and confidence to chose the directions of my life, and consequently it is the key factor when I’m making my decisions. No matter where in the globe I am, or what era or under what ever circumstances, I’m extremely proud and honoured of being Alevi, and if I was to live another life, I would still, with no hesitation, would want to be Alevi again and follow the precious gift that HZ Ali has left for us, I see myself very lucky: because I was born as an Alevi!

Naz, u have some valuable points. Like you state 'being an Alevi' is personal and special in different ways for different people. However, i say 'Alevism' not to undermine but actually excel the word ALEVI because it carries a greater meaning then just being a name for a type of culture. Alevism like any other philosophical term is a philosophy that comes under more than one definition and meaning...and so Alevi becomes Alevism.

I can say this confidently due to the fact that i have studied philosophy for two years. Also Naz, i was not trying to see what the pro's and con's were of Alevism as such, but to pin-point the quality, the humanistic values, the moral values etc....that it provides us with. If you were to pick out every termenology that i use, i will be here for ages trying to put right this misunderstanding that you have seem to encounter.

Adi Guzel Alim, i like the fact that you too have very strong feelings about our great culture, but like we do, if people throw stones at us we should always through back roses, if they spit in our faces, we should always hold our heads high, if they slap us, we should turn the other cheek, because we are doing nothing to be ashamed of, like my good friend Isis said above, Alevism is pure and inncocent yet we have always been discriminated against because we are supposedly deviating from this social norm, of which comes from a society that lives in a Islamic country. But who is to say what the social norm is?

We are born as free, man is freedom, we are entitled to think and believe what we want, so we should not let anything or anyone bring us down....everyone always tries to undermine each other, question others intellegence, but really it's the person who does this the most who is most insecure.

leyla i think there is a misunderstanding here, like i said, i dont agree with the term alevism but also i did highlight the fact that it was ones personal choice. about the pros and cons that is just my point of view you dont have to agree with it, but thats the way i see it, i dont categorise my culture, and to be perfectly honest with you i wasnt trying to start a childish debate as such, and i will not, and dont take it personal plz, i just read the article and expressed my own perspective. i didnt even pay attention to the writer to be totally honest with you, so its not a personal thing towards you. funny how u got stuck on two words, i actually did find your piece quite nice, and the way people express their views can differ, no need to turn it into a debate, it doesnt create a plesant atmosphere also no need to answer in such way coz all i expressed was my view points.. and i always will regardless of such misunderstandings.

also i wasnt undermining or challenging anyones intellegence this all seem to childish to me so will not answer any further... however, 'Alevilik' is a whole culture with great morals and ethics, so i would not just name it with a PHILOSOPHICAL term.

I have recently launched a thread in Turkish section of the forum to receive feedbacks about how Alevis are perceived abroad.

Since I may, soon, be going Europe to pursue my education, I wonder the opinions of other people's on Alevism. Because I am quite worried about the Anti-Islamic sentiments among the Western Nations.

It'd be really helpful if some of you wrote everyday experiences :)

Dear Naz, :) i just want to say that what i wrote was not actually a childish debate made against you...although when i read it through myself, it did come across as an argument...i should have made myself more clear...i apologise sincerely.

Also, i understand and respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, since i too have my own! i see that you have referred to 'being an Alevi' as Alevilik, yet Alevism is the term we use to express Alevilik in english, since i can not go around to enlgish speaking people ''alevilik is about...'' i would have to say Alevism, it's an english term used for a turkish word.

Also, i was not naming Alevisim on the sole basis of it being a philosophical culture, besides the fact that it is a philosophical culture, it does also fall under a musical culture as well as humanistic culture. I'd wish that you wouldn't read into things so much.

I hope i have made things clear.

i seriously dont i understand why you making a big deal out of this, and it is starting to get on my nerves, i mean i dont care what you study or have studied or whatever, i said i dont agree with the term, purely because ALEVILIK is not just a philosophy, its a belief faith ethic you name it... but dont act like you know it all and that u have the right to act in such way, for you reference i do read a lot, and yes it is about my culture, therefore ALEVILIK, and coming from a dede family i do actually have an idea of what alevilik is.... so ! like i said before i dont want to answer you anymore, so stop this childish debate, and yes it is childish, i dont see no adult factors in the points your raising.you are such a hypocrite, ''challenging others intellegence''.. ? and so what is this your trying to do.

i dont have anymore to say to you, coz its not gonna look nice... stop being arrogant, you know it doesnt help when trying to highlight a point within a group.

is this what they call a catfight :), or a delightful conversation between two well-educated ladies with good manners? I am not taking anybody's side here, but it seems like you two are arguing in the blind. come on, sisters.
you two have made some strong points and i d like to point out to you two that they dont contradict each other, but complement. ask anybody, I dont see much difference between each writings, one difference might be that they are under different labels, maybe?
just take it easy, girls, you two obviously know a lot alevi culture but cant get to share the culture? I dont think so, you can do better than that. let s lower our tones a bit and see how great a person both of you are.

i agree Isis, but i think im being misunderstood!! i didnt question Naz's intelligence, i can see that she is clever girl actually. If you read what i'm saying...u'll see who my words are actually meant for....but i think i want to close this 'childish debate' because i feel my point is not clear enough and some people take it offensive. I can feel a tense atmosphere in here too so i will just drop it.

Hey Naz, sorry if i made you feel uncomfortable at any point...and i really respect the fact that you come from a family with a Dede as member, although i felt quite upset that you used it against me as if to make a point...and i didnt imply that i was smarter than anybody else...so i'd appreciate if you didnt make comments like that...at the end of the day...we are all equals.

Anyway, i was reading an article on the train today...and it said that Shamanism is one of the oldest rituals and traditions stil survivng today and existing in eastern parts of Turkey, Iran, iraq, syria etc...i was wondering what you guys and girls felt about that, since alot of our Alevi culture is built upon our shamanistic tradition. Or otherwise...

what are your views?

Oh God GIRLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, wot have u guys done???

Shamanism , I dont really know much, aside from What I ve heard from here and there. but read little about Tengri from Zahir. you guys must have heard the paul coehlo's new book, Zahir. Zahir is arabic, it means something or somebody that has crossed your path in some way, and you cant forget about it, you keep looking for it. it was confusing at first. then it all began to make sense. Tengri , old turkish, we use Tanri instead, does not mean God. it is the mother nature, a living thing that has come to be seen as God incarnate in our world, or perhaps that s how the unlearned thinks it is. Tengri, I believe is a strong part of Shaman tradition. cleansing your body and your soul with the ways of the nature, opening your heart to the living, not segregating, not contemplating, not planning. just acting on your instincts, thus contacting the inner you. there we run into a new term, esoterism or esoteric science. although it is not called Shamanism, we can find traces of it all around the world, not just on the steppes of Mid-Asia.

the modern science looks at it as the evolotion of man, like we see the earth giving life and we hold it sacred,and sun giving light, we dub it holy,bla bla. well, I dont look at it that way. I believe we were all taught all of these things before hand by some superior beings that used to live with us .

with them gone , not being visible to our eyes anymore, and knowledgeable people not pasing on the precious knowledge they had ben taught properly to the descendants, I believe we are missing a huge link in the history of man.

I hope I didnt confuse anybody with halfway complete remarks of mine,

I d really like to hear your side if anything I say makes sense to you :)

Goodmorning everybody,

First of all I would like to say to Naz and Leyla, that there is no need for disrespecting or 'fighting' in this forum. Every one has the right to give his or her opinion in a respectfull way! I have read both of your stories, and just like our dear friend isis said, I agree with the fact that your opinions are quiet the same...So girls what's going on? I mean really, I couldn't believe my eyes when I read things about one 'being educated' the other 'being from a Dede family', non of these things makes the one better than the rest!! You both explain the meaning of 'Alevisim' or 'being a Alevi' in a very nice way, but by treating eachother like this in this forum, I see non of these values about'Alevism' you both explained us in your stories back. Girls girls...whe are sisters, we should support eachother right? And I know you two can do better than this :sarkazm ... I think it's very kind that Leyla appologises, I don't think there is any need for it, but still it shows kindness!

And Isis, thanks for your information!

Love,

Isik

Thanks Isik Darling :) to be honest i don't no why it got so far-fetched, but it's over and done with...well on my behalf anyway!

I agree with something you and Isis have both stated, we were actually saying the same thing, but i think Naz just either misunderstood me or ...(you guyz call fill the gaps because i can't think of anything else to be honest!)

And i do have respect for everyone, i can asure u that...because i didnt create this sub-section to start a cat fight...because your right...firstly it wouldn't suit my character or the values i have obtained from my Alevi culture...and to be honest i was apologising not for what i said but for my attitude...otherwise i too realise that i didn't actually have to!

Now Isis, you have a fantastic point....the funny thing is i actually came across a similar piece on the internet when i was doing some research!! wow...im glad you made a plausable point...i couldn't have summed it up as well as you did mate. Oh and yes i understood it perfectly...thanks for your input!

Gnosticisim, gnos, which means knowledge. not the read and learn type of knowledge, but a knowledge that must be gained through experience, which does include the taming of the soul, a soul that is trapped in our body and cant leap across the galaxy because of the physical restirictions of our body and world. to set the soul free, one must tame the soul first, they say.

science tells us that we have been using only a tiniest bit of our brain to get through our lives , and make innovations one turtle step at a time.

do you really believe that was God's plan for us to use only a small amount of our brain and figure everything out by ourselves? I dont think so.

many things have been forgotten, we have been misled , turned blind and cheated.

in 1945, at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, a shepperd dug up a pile of books up in the hills by accident. rumors are that these were the writings belonging to the early days of christianity. then they vanished. a conspiracy theory is that if those documents were to be published , that would be the end of everything Christians of all sects has come to believe in.

and those documents were rumored to be the earliest gnostic writings.

it is my understanding that Gnosism is what come to know as Tasavvuf in Turkish.
Gnostics believe that there is only one God, and Jesus Christ is no son of God but solely a messenger.

they believe that this world is ruled by Satan, who is trapped with us in this world. so until the Soul sees the light, it will continue to be trapped in this world. Body is simply a means of physical transportation.

the word Esoteric in english does not mean a cult or an organization as the contemporaries argue it is.

I have to go now, but i ll come back to finish

how are we doing so far, lost ?, confused or intrugued?all these could yet be just the imaginations of a genius mind , could it ?

Leyla's quote: "Thanks Isik Darling to be honest i don't no why it got so far-fetched, but it's over and done with...well on my behalf anyway!

I agree with something you and Isis have both stated, we were actually saying the same thing, but i think Naz just either misunderstood me or ...(you guyz call fill the gaps because i can't think of anything else to be honest!)"

You are right sweety! It shows you have a strong character! Take care!!!

ISIK....Thank you for ur support baby girl!!!

Isis...my gosh, the information you have provided is great and very interesting...could you do me a favour and relate the article you wrote to Alevism, because i would love to hear what you think the relation and interaction is between the two very different belief systems and cultures.

Your quote on our body is used as means of our physical transportaion has got my attention, because it is very philosophical, in that it is perhaps something, Descrates would imply...especially on the part of Satan, since Descarted believed that we had a Deamon that fooled us into the illusion of life and objectivity....yet he says 'i think therefore i am'...(cogito ergo sum)but is this enough justification to say that we do exist... Like Sarte asks....do we have an essence?

Thanks....

Thank you,Leyla, I am flattered that I did help ignite a few sparks there,
those were the words once said to me by the Author of the book Rule By Secrecy, Jim Marrs.

Rule by secrecy tells a great deal about secret organizations, early christian and jewish teachings, the famous muslim brotherhood, assasins, freemasonry, and goes so far into the world of old Egypt, and even fools you for a second that we were cloned by Aliens from outer space to work the mines of the planet earth :)
the works of a genius mind ? like the inventor of the Mormon Religion. cant really tell, but the trick is not to believe everything you hear but to ponder a while, think back on and compare and get lost in the frenzy yet again :)

I strongly suggest that you find the book and take a glimpse of the events it covers.

on the front page it says something like this : if you believe you are living your life under the impression that things are how it should be, then dont read this book, because it will tear apart your life.but if you believe otherwise, and hop on for a ride.

you ll love it for the thrill it give, that much I can guarantee


I

..how Alevis are perceived abroad.

Most Americans have no idea what an Alevi is.

Now, Muslims specifically, on the other hand, have quite a large population in the major cities.

For example, in my birthplace of Minneapolis, there are a large number of Somalian imigrants/refugees who are Muslim by faith. They have their own grocery stores and tend to stick together in their communities. How they are treated depends largely on how they treat others. Unfortunately, I found most of them to be very rude and intolerant of the very people who gave them asylum. On the other hand, the ones who could speak fluent English I found to be quite sociable and eager to make friends. Whether this is a reflection of individuality or the barriers imposed by language I cannot say for certain.

But again.. most people outside of Islam and/or Sufism in America couldn't tell you what an Alevi is.

I am familiar with Turkish culture because I like the music, am fascinated by Eastern philosophy and religion and am told that people of Scandinavian descent, like myself, originally were refugees from Troy following Roman invasion.

I am familiar with Turkish culture because I like the music, am fascinated by Eastern philosophy and religion and am told that people of Scandinavian descent, like myself, originally were refugees from Troy following Roman invasion.[/quote]

Hi, thanks for your input. I was wondering however, what you see yourself as, for instance if someone was to say where are you from or what is your ehtnic background or what are your religious beliefs (if necessary) what would you say?

For instance I live in London, yet i was born in Turkey, but when people ask what my ethnic background is...i would say i was Kurdish (since i am kurdish). When people hear that you are Turkish or Kurdish in London, the first thing they say is '...oh so your a muslim', and it becomes very difficult to make it clear to people that there is more than one belief or culture other tha Muslims, such as Jewish people, christians and Alevi people, since they too, even if it is a minority in some cases, do live in Turkey.

Sahdowpuppet WELCOME to this forum!!!!!!!!! We are happy to have you here....


Love,

Isik

And Leyla: I still like you, even if I get a minus point for that...hihihiih:p

And Leyla: I still like you, even if I get a minus point for that...hihihiih:p

Hahahaha :yamukgul: Thanks.....that means alot to me, i liked the way you persist on liking me just to rebel against someone else :p Well, i like you too and everybody....yes even the person that gave you a minus....REMEMBER KIDZ......

LETS MAKE LOVE NOT WAR :hopala

now say it with me.....:sas

Hahahaha :yamukgul: Thanks.....that means alot to me, i liked the way you persist on liking me just to rebel against someone else :p Well, i like you too and everybody....yes even the person that gave you a minus....REMEMBER KIDZ......

LETS MAKE LOVE NOT WAR :hopala

now say it with me.....:sas

I'm shouting as hard as I can, maybe you can here me over there in London:

LOVE IS THE ANWSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm shouting as hard as I can, maybe you can here me over there in London:

LOVE IS THE ANWSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THAT'S IT....i heard it loud and clear :36_1_55:

How does Alevism define Love? i don't mean just between two people, i mean love for humanity and so on...

Any suggestions?

one thing im sure of is, it does not include hypocrisy and arrogance.. love in all cases need purity and a 'real mean'... yelling it out doesnt mean love, you can only show it with your actions. in Alevi culture love can only exist if there is honesty, dignity and pride. if one doesnt carry any of these factors, that clearly declares that person doesnt have self-esteem and self-respect, therefore they certainly cannot nourish love for others.

ps. so called 'peace making' is not necessary if the same one is declaring a rebel against the other... now.. that certainly does contridict and doesnt contain any love.....

Do you know what really annoys me, people using symbols to identify who they are. For example, the cross (Christians), the moon and the star (Muslims), the sword (Shi'ites and Alevis) etc.

Most of the people whom I have come across hardly understand the meaning of the actual symbols but seem to put it on as if it is a fashion statement, like the Che Guevara jackets.

This really annoys me. I dont really mind if the individual knows what it actually stands for, or understands what it really means to wear a sword around their neck etc. But I have no tolerance for people who just use these sacred symbols to segregate themselves or wear it as a fashion statement.

Shaman

As I have already said in the topic "Zülfikar tasimak", I usually have a "sword" on my necklace, I simply LOVE it, it gives me a comfortable feeling and somehow strength. I like to show other people aho and what I am but not to show off or to provocate anybody, no... but to say right from the start: "Hey, that's me and if you don't want to be my friend because of this or if you look down at me because of what and who I am, go off! I don't want you anyway"
But I know what you mean, you mean just carrying signs without really knowing what they mean or what it all covers. For instance, if you wear a sword, you should feel it and try to "deserve" it, you should follow the belief and way of thinking and living. You know what I mean?

Alevi culture love can only exist if there is honesty, dignity and pride. if one doesnt carry any of these factors, that clearly declares that person doesnt have self-esteem and self-respect, therefore they certainly cannot nourish love for others.

ps. so called 'peace making' is not necessary if the same one is declaring a rebel against the other... now.. that certainly does contridict and doesnt contain any love.....

I agree with you Naz that yes infact it does take honesty, dignity and pride to love in the general sense, because otherwise anything that breaches this is unpure. I agree with you in that sense, and appreciate how you have considered this in relations to Alevi culture.

However, can love only be shown through actions alone? I assumed that yelling was also a form of action and expression. You can show love through music too, that's also using your vocal cords..in which some cases our lovely singers do 'yell'.

Also, i know what you meant by 'peace making' and i know in what regards you said it too, but the fact that you said that peace does not qualify when their is rebel gainst the other, i thought for a second that this is not true, since Alevism also teaches us that even if they spit in our faces, you should always throw flowers back...and then the other side would realise their faults and drop the abusiveness and unessecary rebel made, if infact they had a heart and conscious.

I would like to state though, you do have a valuble argument. Thank you for your input...it was much appreciated.

This really annoys me. I dont really mind if the individual knows what it actually stands for, or understands what it really means to wear a sword around their neck etc. But I have no tolerance for people who just use these sacred symbols to segregate themselves or wear it as a fashion statement.
Shaman

Hey Shaman, welcome to our Forum.

I agree with you, this whole fashion statement used to exploit their belief is angrevating. I saw a Hiphop Video the other day With Puff or P-Diddy what ever his name is.....with a huge Crusifix around his neck dimond crusted and the whole fat chain and what have you....i was thinking to myself...is it really necessary to exploit your belief in the means of trying to set a trend.

If you think about it, Religion has become like a fashion statement, and this does infact start to segregate people and cause a devision like you had stated. I remember when i used to be in Secondary school...Girls and Boys used to wear Rosary's around their neck when it is an important and traditional devotion of the Roman Catholic Church, combining prayer and meditation in sequences of ten "Hail Marys," each sequence being called a decade. And yes they had no clue about what it was, they just saw that it looked good and that everybody had one and so a tend was born.

Bütün Evren Semah Döner

Aşık Hüdai

Bütün Evren Semah Döner
Aşkından Güneşler Yanar
Aslına Ermektir Hüner
Beş Vakitle Avunmayız

Canan Bizim Canımızdır
Teni Bizim Tenimizdir
Sevgi Bizim Dinimizdir
Başka Dine İnanmayız

Hüdayiyim Hüdamız Var
Dost Elinden Bademiz Var
Muhabbetten Kalamız Var
Ölüm Ölür Biz Ölmeyiz



BARIS INANC SEVGI UMUT

..what is your ethnic background or what are your religious beliefs (if necessary) what would you say?

Hiya.

Well.. to start, ethnic backgorund is a complex issue for Americans because here it is a melting pot of culture and ethnicity. (This is why many Americans speak strange rigid English, because it was not the native language of their families. You have to listen for the other elements to really understand it.)

To start with the first generation I can say that my mother's parents are descended from Norway, what is now the UK and Native America. My father's from Sweden and the UK/France.

These days I like to think of myself as a Trojan refugee who is a long long way from home. :-)

Religion.. is also complex but I will say that I believe it is merely any people's way of defining and personifying the creative source in nature and the natural flow of any element of it.. what we call truth. God is God, no matter what you call...."it".

There is no good or evil but what is manifested through balance with the laws of nature or, to the contrary, imbalance. Nature is nature and that is all. Things are only ugly or beautiful as they stand in comparison to other objects. You can ride the wave of what you already know is right or you can lock up and crash into the sand. The result is what is truly ugly. Any other definition is simply an opinion.

I participate in a Sufi message group, I play music of an Arabesque nature and I would prefer to call "God" Al-Lah as opposed to anything else but I don't attend Mosque or adhere to fundamentalist Islamic practices. I also converse from time to time with Kurdish Yezedi and although I find their religion equally beautiful and acceptable I must admit it comes across to me as being strangely quirky and flowing against my grain. (Eating fish and that sort of thing.)

Islam ....means "surrender" and.. I simply surrender to what I know is the truth. I read the Qur'an by the light of what cultural and historical context it was written. Rumi said there are many ways to kneel on one's carpet.

I would love to claim Alevili for myself but ..I am an American. I was born here and I know of no Bektashi sect or Cem in the states.

I would love to claim Alevili for myself but ..I am an American. I was born here and I know of no Bektashi sect or Cem in the states.

I am happy to say that a certain member of the board has informed me today that the old ways of restriction to Alevilik by bloodlines has diminished with the demise of the Ottoman Empire and that my ethnicity has no real bearing on my accpetance within the community.

(Maybe I will change my picture to something less threatening. Sorry.. it's the wild Indian in my blood. Can't be helped.)

Al-hamdulillah...
As-Salaam Aleykum.

~C

http://rap.midco.net/trellis/filthpig.gif

Shadow, we are NOT a sect!!
PS: Yess, this picture is MUCH better ; )))))))))

Shadow, we are NOT a sect!!

Yes, I know. Alevilik is not Islam but Bektashi is an offshoot of Alevilik. CorrecT?

Shadow, we are NOT a sect!!

Yes, I know. Alevilik is not Islam. But Bektashi is an Alevi Order and in American English the two words "order" and "sect" are interchangeable.

Yes, I know. Alevilik is not Islam. But Bektashi is an Alevi Order and in American English the two words "order" and "sect" are interchangeable.
Alright then, thanks 4 the enlightement!!:p

I would love to claim Alevili for myself but ..I am an American. I was born here and I know of no Bektashi sect or Cem in the states.

Shadowpuppet (sorry i don't know ur real name...) i would first of all like to congratulate you on the basis on your keen interest in Alevisim. Not many people deviating from Turkey know anything about Alevism let alone knowing of its existance.

It's amazing that you take part in alot of activities that i also love to engage in too, for instance i love Sufi music, there are treatments of cancer based on meditation to sufi music now because the impact of the Ney hits you right in the heart, which is what is most important in Alevi culture. But please remember that Alevisim isn't a sect, but i would see why people would imagine that it would be. Since Christianity itself was made in honour of Jesus whom was Jewish, just as Alevisim came into light through honouring Hz. Ali and the 12 imams.

Alevisim has alot to stand for in all means, it's a philosphy of love, humanity, equality, poetry, science, music etc... the list is endless.

Also, please do keep in mind that there are different kinds of Kurdish people. You have Kurds that are Iraqi, Syrien, Turkish, Iranian etc.. and all come from different tribal backgrounds and have different Languages. I am also Kurdish, we speak Kurmanci and my family have travelled over many decades over to Turkey from Horosan, from which we still kept our Shamanistic and Alevi values till this day. All Alevi's have a shamanistic background, which is why Alevism is one of the most respected and oldest traditional and ritual based Cultures.

All Alevi's have a shamanistic background, which is why Alevism is one of the most respected and oldest traditional and ritual based Cultures.

Yes, I am aware of this. In the US there has been an increasingly great interest and especially among the youth of the European shamanic religions that were outlawed under the Catholic rule and disregarded as witchcraft. The word Shaman is actually a Scandinavian word and all throughout Europe there is a history that is buried. In America many of us, like myself, have Native blood which seems to bring us to different conclusions about the way the world really works. The tribal ways of the Native Americans are not so ancient as the rest of the world. They came right out of the stone age into what we have now.

I have done much research in (I'll just call it Alevism) and Kurdish culture before I ever thought to come to the website and say hi. I am aware of the political strife as well. I found Alevism unique in that it seems to capture the essence of what I already believe but is also heavily influenced by people like Ali and the Dervishes.

Most of the websites are biased in one way or another depending on the community but not necessarily in a bad way. My favorite site is http://www.alevism.net because it presents a wide and completely unbiased perspective of the culture. It doesn't claim any one particular definition but rather a collective one.

My mother named me Chris but I usually just go by C in websites that cater to the Eastern world.

Peace, eh.

I am also Kurdish, we speak Kurmanci and my family have travelled over many decades over to Turkey from Horosan, from which we still kept our Shamanistic and Alevi values till this day. All Alevi's have a shamanistic background, which is why Alevism is one of the most respected and oldest traditional and ritual based Cultures.
kurmanci, kirmanc and dimili are zazaki dialect not kurdish.
If you speaking kirmanc (, zazaki) you aren't a kurd you are a zaza, excuse me if I be to directly.
that's an asimilation politic by kurdish people to say zazakis are kurdish, that's not correct. the zazaki are between (geografical) Turkey and Iraq/Iran. Turks say that zazaki are turks and kurds says they are kurdish, thats a political game which is effective because most of zazaki have forget their background.
Also please remember kurdish and kırmanc are 2 very different languages.

here some useful links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza_people
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90046 (Zaza tree)
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90021 (full Northwestern Iranian tree)


English, Zazaki, Kurdish, Turkis

other, abinı, yadin, diğeri
wedding, veyve, gund, düğün
village, dew, guhartin, köy

Now what do you unterstanding?
To read the difference between zazaki and kurdish please visit:
http://zazapress.tripod.com/english/English.html#farukiremet

Most of the websites are biased in one way or another depending on the community but not necessarily in a bad way. My favorite site is http://www.alevism.net because it presents a wide and completely unbiased perspective of the culture. It doesn't claim any one particular definition but rather a collective one.

My mother named me Chris but I usually just go by C in websites that cater to the Eastern world.

Peace, eh.

Hello C nice to see you here, you're welcome.
alevism.net seems to be a good ressource about alevismn but I don't know the creator's of the site and with my half english I can't understanding at all so I can't make a comment about this site.

http://www.alevibektasi.org/makale_engl.htm have some english articles (professional researches) about alevism, bektashi, tahtaji, kizilbash etc.

Thanks for the references Alevimen. Will have a look...

All Alevi's have a shamanistic background, which is why Alevism is one of the most respected and oldest traditional and ritual based Cultures.


Non never..Not All Alevi's have shamanistic origin but Turks. Kurdishes convert to alevism in 16.centuries.There are many resources about converting to alevism. The fact that you're not wright on this section. Although alevism contoains shamanistic believings in matter and manner it's the essence heart of Islamic religion. We take care about living our multicultural life yet we are seperated as Turkish and Kurdish.Zaza,kurmanc etc...

Alevisim's origin has a shamanistic background which was a religion of Turkish in ancient times..

This believing took some differences after islamic religion had come on the scene..Just as loving Prophet Mohammed's Ehli bayt but not all sahabas..

Pay attention to the following verse of KORAN..


[48:29]
"Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are
harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and
compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and
prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval.
Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating.
This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example
in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and
stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the
disbelievers. GOD promises THOSE AMONG THEM who believe,
and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense."
As we can see, God was pleased with these "Sahabas" for what they did at that time, supporting the Prophet and standing with him against the aggressors. There is no guarantee or promise by God in these verses that these "Sahabas" would not make any mistakes, turn back on their heels or stay on the right path.But sahaba Ali seperated from all those sahabas.He is also Mohammad also on the other hand light of prophet. Notice the expression in 48:29, "THOSE AMONG THEM", which tells you, it is not ALL of them. God in the Quran told us about those who believe, then disbelieve then believe again then disbelieve, see 4:137, which reminds us that once you blessed with becoming a believer, there is not a guarantee that you stay a believer. What happened to some of these "Sahabas" as we know from history confirms such that.

Yours sincerely

Dear Alevimen and The Godfather, thank you both for your descriptive and useful information. I like the fact that there are many different views on the matter. I find both of your input very useful and enlightening.

Thank you both.

Thank you both.

Yes, as I say, the alevism.net site proved to be a valuable starting point for me as it captures a bit of all ways of defining the path, whether you come from Anatolian tribal heritage or Kurdish background. In the last pages there is a links section that includes many of the sites mentioned here and also modern organizations and music.

I suppose it is good that people like me come along once and awhile as it brings the entire group together in an attempt to describe what Alevism means to them.

Thanks to everybody for their kind and patient words and advice.

~C*

[quote=shadowpuppet] I suppose it is good that people like me come along once and awhile as it brings the entire group together in an attempt to describe what Alevism means to them.[quote]

You are right, but the thing is everybody has very different opinions on what Alevism means to them, and i agree it is very interesting and enlightening, but sometimes i feel people are more interested in proving that their belief is right and others is wrong, when really Alevism should be about the individual themselves, what it means to me and me alone, and what Alevism means to you and you only. It should be sacred between you and your feelings, what lies in your heart.

That is why i respect the fact that i can say something and someone can say wait a minute you should consider this element of the argument, rather than hey look im right your wrong.

I don't know if i've expressed myself clearly, but i just thought i should mention it anyway.

And i'm glad there are people like you who want to learn so much more about different aspects of one very unique and special culture such as Alevism.
:)

Hi this is Veysel, i've just seen this website and i think it's great. I came across this section, and i just wanted to say to people in here that everyone is entitled to an opion, and everyone will want others to appreciate eachother's views, like Leyla mentioned, you have to respect one another and understand that not everyone will know as much or as little as others.

I would like to join to forum once i had signed up.

Peace Out

Hi this is Veysel, i've just seen this website and i think it's great. I came across this section, and i just wanted to say to people in here that everyone is entitled to an opion, and everyone will want others to appreciate eachother's views, like Leyla mentioned, you have to respect one another and understand that not everyone will know as much or as little as others.

I would like to join to forum once i had signed up.

Peace Out
Hi Veysel you are welcome, if you yet registered and if you want to register (it's free) click here:
http://www.aleviforum.com/register.php

Anyway you can post also as guest (but only international categories), would be nice if we hear again from you.

What is to stop me from playing the music of the Aşık with a Balalaika instead of a Saz?

if ever a tear should fall
may it fall like rain

and if the levee breaks
may it break your chains

and the river floods
and the river flows

wash away
wash away

http://www.dreamsmadeflesh.org/turn2stone/fns/06_wAshaWay.mp3

What is to stop me from playing the music of the Aşık with a Balalaika instead of a Saz?

Nothing.

If water stands still for too long it becomes undrinkable. It must be free to flow.


You have such a way in expressing your self, i literally look like this :sook when i'm reading your pieces. You express ideas in a very good way, i would like to thank you for that- not many people can do that.

I agree with your water analogy, because it is very straight forward and realistic.
It doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you live the same passion in your heart. If something is done in order to please others, then i don't see much point in doing it, a person should always fulfil their passion in the means of having to teach and learn something for themselves, and then perhaps extend it onto others. Like the saying goes, life is too short, make something happen whilst you can, create, teach, learn and so on...just do it for yourself, we owe it to ourselves.

:)

Hi this is Veysel, i've just seen this website and i think it's great. I came across this section, and i just wanted to say to people in here that everyone is entitled to an opion, and everyone will want others to appreciate eachother's views, like Leyla mentioned, you have to respect one another and understand that not everyone will know as much or as little as others.

I would like to join to forum once i had signed up.

Peace Out

Hello there Veysel, thanks for understanding the point i was trying to maintain and suggest. I hope to see you soon in joining in our discussions.

It doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you live the same passion in your heart. :)

Yes. It seems so many people are so busy building walls around their temples that they forget to add doors and windows.

Yes. It seems so many people are so busy building walls around their temples that they forget to add doors and windows.

I here your pain brother :sarkazm i think they also forgot to put ventalation since no oxygen gets into their healthy little brains. :p I'm just joking ofcourse, but on a serious note, being in love with what you do is being in love with the concept of the things attritubted to it.

The sound of the ney is beautiful and it hits you right in the heart, but someone else may like the sound of a trumpet instead, it is about preference it seems. Sometimes our prefereces can lead us in different directions, but if at the end you are happy with the desicion, then there is nothing or no-one to say anything deviating from that.

I think that people are too concerned with what they think is the right way of doing things or living life, when really it should be up to the person. For example, in your case, you have held onto the concept of Alevism with both hands and do not seem like you will let go (i hope not anyway), and yet you may have been criticised for doing so, but it should not be up to OTHERS, it should be about you...your preference, your individual choice.

For example, in your case, you have held onto the concept of Alevism with both hands and do not seem like you will let go (i hope not anyway), and yet you may have been criticised for doing so, but it should not be up to OTHERS, it should be about you...your preference, your individual choice.

It seems to have held onto me. It is a way of, I suppose, defining the conclusions I have already made about the world and at the same time giving me a rather specific community in which to share my beliefs.

I only wish there was a Cemevi nearby.

I only wish there was a Cemevi nearby.

Hey!! i see what you mean, in London at the moment we've had the cemevi for quite sometime but it is only recently that something is being done with it in means of helping other Alevis and spreading awareness, espcially to the younger generation (which is the catagory i suppose i fall under). They have brought over a Dede, and cems are now being undertaken which is great.

Just out of interest, do you socialise with other Alevi's or Bektasi people? or the question should be rather, are there Alevi people around that you can socialise with?

Just out of interest, do you socialise with other Alevi's or Bektasi people? or the question should be rather, are there Alevi people around that you can socialise with?

In America? Pshhhhh. I wouldn't know where to begin looking!

In America? Pshhhhh. I wouldn't know where to begin looking!

:höng oh gosh, that's true. Well, at least you have some social endurance in here, even if it is just via internet.


A question for all

Can Alevism ever integrate into other cultures around the world, or will this never happen?

We see western countries adopt Buddhism and meditations as form of culture and so on... could Alevism also be as inspirational if it was made known widely, or would this just make Alevism more 'out-of-touch' with its originality and tradition???? :o

what do you lot think about this then?:garibbak:

:ilgili:

If people knew what it was, perhaps they would be more interested in it.

For a long time I was under the assumption that the world around Turkey was entirely Muslim, with the Christians and the Jews being a small minority.

It was within my personal studies of Sufism that I encountered the Alevi path and found that about 1/3 of the population in Turkey is Aleviler. I was completely shocked. And even moreso when it became clear to me that the dominating opinion was that Alevism is considered to be an undisciplined "Protestant-like" version of Islam and looked down upon by most Muslims. Shocked because it did not at all fit the description of Alevism by the people within the culture itself and I was offended that supposedly legitimate and educated scholars are actively passing on a false image of the Alevis.

Straight Sufism is actually quite well known throughout the West ..with varying interpretations and degrees of adherence to Islamic practices. In fact, Rumi is the number one selling poet in America.

Most people don't know this.

(You have to remember.. about half of the country is with Bush and people like him. The other half is very much against him as being their representative and military leader. Many of us are quite embarrassed to even admit we are Americans. Most people who have enough money to travel frequently are complete caricatures of the mundane stick-figure/barking dog Americans we have all come to know and detest ...and don't represent the rest of us in the least.)

But yes, I think if Alevism had a bonafide spokesperson in the West I'm sure it would attract many more people than just one lone American on the internet! :yamukgul:

But yes, I think if Alevism had a bonafide spokesperson in the West I'm sure it would attract many more people than just one lone American on the internet! :yamukgul:

Well i guess you best get started now then :komik you got alot of work to do and alot of awareness to spread....remember there is always a starting point :yamukgul:

Well i guess you best get started now then :komik you got alot of work to do and alot of awareness to spread....remember there is always a starting point :yamukgul:

Ah, but I am just a musician and only beginning to play in the Eastern fashion. If this ever provides a source of divine inspiration for people then I suppose I have fufilled a greater purpose than simply entertaining people. :ehyani

Ah, but I am just a musician and only beginning to play in the Eastern fashion. If this ever provides a source of divine inspiration for people then I suppose I have fufilled a greater purpose than simply entertaining people. :ehyani

This may be so, but alot of inspiration is spread through Music. I was watching A documentary called ‘The weeping Camel’ shot in Mongolia, showed a mother camel experiencing a difficult birth; the colt that eventually emerges is completely white, a rarity. The mother camel immediately rejects her baby, refusing to let it feed. Here the relationships between human and animal come into an even sharper focus, as a lady starts to sing to the camel with a musician capable of performing the shamanistic curing ritual. By doing this they try and reconnect the broken relationship between the mother and baby camel, in which the mother camel starts to cry whilst, accepting her young to feed.

The main attraction for me in this production was the shaman musician alongside the the woman that sang to the camel, i was mesmorised and managed to get something out of it. something that will now stick with me forever.

I think that what you do as a musician is fantastic, and i have alot of respect for all persons who undertake a form of art, especially of that which provides an insight into other cultures, not just to entertain people. Entertainment should always fall to second plan, the first is to understand what you are confronted with. :)

John Lennon said the job of any poet or artist is to express what we all feel. It is a responsibility, actually, to seriously take up something like music because you're learning to craft emotion ..the images people take into their mind.

I'm actually quite offended when I hear a song say something to the effect of "this is the right way.. follow me". But...if I have found a place in the universe where I am welcome and at ease, which it seems I have, then maybe my music will open the door to the same place for other people.

Modesty is a trait much of the world could do with more of. Especially the Western portion of it.

You know though.. about the white camel. In Native American shamanic culture there is a prophecy that when the white buffalo is born it is a sign of the times, a time when all cultures will merge together as one and be the Rainbow Tribe.

http://www.homestead.com/WhiteBuffaloMiracle/

~C*

I'm actually quite offended when I hear a song say something to the effect of "this is the right way.. follow me". But...if I have found a place in the universe where I am welcome and at ease, which it seems I have, then maybe my music will open the door to the same place for other people.

We're in the same boat, i mean think of it this way. Just imagine one day that i came to hear you play, but then you turned round and started preaching about something that you don't even practice (which is usually the case in most occasions:yamukgul: ), i too would be strongly offended since i would feel like my personal 'space' was violated. There is no difference beween brain washing through cults or through songs.

Today's generation are more fortunate in that they have a choice in what they want to believe, do or say. However, they are also less fortunate because the people they idolise are usually sending some form of secular message through their songs, film productions and magazines etc. This is why i give so much credit to sceptics, since they are always sceptical about everything, however it is sad that even being a sceptic is now seen as becoming a member of a non-believing cult, because that is what humans like to do....make a group, cult, gang, membership club...etc even the simple things like being a member of a scout group or a member of a basketball team, bank society etc. immediately deviate you from everything and everyone else.

If we all started to see that basketball was actually a sporting game and is done on behalf of having fun, keeping fit and being a competitive sport, which at the end they all go away happy, fit and friends and not a sporting cult which those who are tall, well built and very good with the ladies are members of, then i think we would have a completely different perhaps even positive insight into many other things too.

I think that, instead of trying to get a majority to side with you, we should have a minorty of everything and anything....which would then fall under interest. If we all started to play the piano this world would i asure you become a boring place, it's good to have a variety, why not play the banjo or drums, the ney or saz, why not learn to play all of the above. I believe that if we all had a positive perspective, then competition wouldn't be such a negative attribution to an event, like when at the end of it all a fight breaks out or people start threatening and killing eachother :hmmm

This is why i give so much credit to sceptics...

If there ever was a time to be a skeptic it's right now in this century.

This follow-the-leader game people are playing is not just dangerous anymore, it's pure insanity and it's the blind leading the blind.

I was watching a documentary on television the other night that exposed all the corruption surrounding the Bush Administration as it related to the US invasion on Iraq. There were many people coming forth from high places within the government saying basically that they knew.. they spoke ...they were ignored. It was the first time I ever felt sorry for people in my government because I know what it's like to walk around every day feeling embarrassed and ashamed of your country. These folks probably feel it even moreso because they were an integral part of the operation. I was raging by the end of the show. How dare people like George Bush presume to represent me?! The same goes for people that tote their Qur'an in the same cloth as their assault rifle. Bush simply does it with a Bible. (And probably an incorrect translation.)

But... my hope is very limited that the exposed facts will really alter the way people vote (as if this were really an honest system in the first place) because the people who really should be seeing television like this were, at the time, most likely sitting there ..farting in a chair, shouting obscenities across the room with food in their mouths ...while watching sports on some other channel.

Yeah, sports promote teamwork, sure. Competition...teamwork. Make lots of friends and fight. Get the ball, doggy.

I fail to see the logic.

I fail to see the logic.

SO DO I :hmmm

Seriously, it's come to stage where i would actually be shocked and devistated if a fight didn't break out after a football game (soccar). I would personally run out of the stadium screaming and shouting whilst pulling my hair out, because it's become a social expectation, a competition which is being encouraged by the government.

Oh, i'll know what we'll do, we'll go to Iraq, start a war, and compete for resources which we have know right over....LETS COMPETE!!!! wohhhooooo i'll get the popcorn :garibbak: , i mean seriously people....how was it possible that America (a nation which i'm hoping is not just full of middle class white american's) was able to select a representative like Bush, who is incapable of tying his own shoe laces?:sarkazm

FORGET THAT......how is it possible that no one is able to say NO! to Guantanamo Bay?!:sook Human rights...pppfffff PLEASE!! I thought capital punishment was injustice....but my gosh? IT'S JUST DISGUSTING. If there are criminal's whom are a danger to society then just lock them up and let them live with their own conscious, their own mental torture, but to humuliate them in an unrightous way is really disgusting. To teach someone a lesson is different from fulfilling what ever fearful fantacie you may have on them, we supposedly have human rights; and so we are still stuck in this infinate regress of 'you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours'. The root of all evil it seems is to serve fr the government!

I too see no logic in this, but so long as we allow stupid people to take the lead...then we'll be good little stupid citizens that follow......Socrates once said question everything....don't be a sheep...don't follow the crowd and was then killed at the expense of supposedly corrupting the mind of the youths....yet it's obvious who's corrupting who. It is sad really that even Socrates was giving the message....and yet no one was actually listening.

....how was it possible that America (a nation which i'm hoping is not just full of middle class white american's) was able to select a representative like Bush, who is incapable of tying his own shoe laces?:sarkazm

Woops, said the B word. One of them anyway.

Actually, he didn't win the popular vote. He won the electoral vote, which is a great example of why this voting system is a farce.

There is also a lot of speculation that the final tally was altered. I mean...he's basically picking up where his father left off in the 90s so...it wouldn't surprise me.

(That family has got money and influence going back centuries from what I understand. Apparently it has even been found to have been tied in with Swiss accounts funding Nazi operations during the 40s.)

As it stands with the polls, the country is divided. 50% pro-Bush and 50% either anti or wandering around with their heads in the clouds.

http://punkvoter.com/dls/dls.php
Check out the George W. Bush Resume.

(Site is not for the feeble of heart. It's a radical anti-Bush organization founded by punk rock musicians.)

But....sorry to veer from the topic. I knew he'd weasel his way in here sooner or later.

But....sorry to veer from the topic. I knew he'd weasel his way in here sooner or later.

DAMN I FELL FOR IT!!! i knew i should have reffered to him as 'Little B'. Yeah your right he is a popular topic of discussion isn't he. Maybe we should not talk about him, lets not give him the satisfaction...AND please don't get me started on Bristish 'B' no.2, he's worse...i get angry just thinking about him :olmadi

It's one big money making scheme; also called the Treasure Hunt game, i'm sure you've hurd of it...this is how it goes:

When the King A.K.A 'Daddy' Runs out of money and power...the prince A.K.A 'lil B' comes into Play and takes charge. Then the Pirates A.K.A 'British' join in with the game after leadership has been determined. The Brits enter the game in the hope that they might make a little profit here and there, but they always keep the white flag up just incase. But the real team players are the Arabs (no A.K.A required), they give directions, which leads to the treasure...their accuracy is what makes the game fun and adventurous.
The rules of the game: THERE ARE NO RULES :garibbak: you are free to kill who you want and when you want...the idea is you have to get to the pot of gold and kill anything that may get in your way...even if it means killing innocent children, families or killing your own.

This is one game i'd rather sit out :uhhm: . We have lost so many people in this needless corruption...all to benefit the pockets of others. Money obviously plays more importance for these (mind my french) B*s**rds then someone's life.

While we're on the topic...MONEY...good or evil?

MONEY THE GREATEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MAN KIND OR THE WORST THING TO HIT THE FACE OF THE EARTH?

Should we have stuck to exchanging goods rather then exchanging pieces of metal and paper that seems to govern our lives? No offence but you can't even take a dump without having to pay money, what is this world coming to?

I think i've made my point....WHAT ABOUT YOU? money...good or bad?

I think i've made my point....WHAT ABOUT YOU? money...good or bad?

http://rap.midco.net/trellis/T2S4.jpg

It's up for debate.:S

It's up for debate.:S

turn to stone? what you mean we should go back to exchanging stones rather than pieces of metal :höng

http://rap.midco.net/trellis/T2S4.jpg

It's up for debate.:S

Hi sir...What debate..Had I seen the T2S I couldnt what it meant..
Can you explain.

Can you explain.

Turn2Stone is the name of my band. Where I live there are mountains carved with the faces of American presidents and Indian chiefs. When one looks at Medusa they "turn to stone". Most of that symbolism is personal to myself but the logo itself, the T and the S should be self-explanatory....like a christian cross made with the US dollar symbol. ($)

Turn2Stone is the name of my band. Where I live there are mountains carved with the faces of American presidents and Indian chiefs. When one looks at Medusa they "turn to stone". Most of that symbolism is personal to myself but the logo itself, the T and the S should be self-explanatory....like a christian cross made with the US dollar symbol. ($)

Ok...i got it, but that doesn't answer whether you think money is a good or bad thing? :o

Turn2Stone is the name of my band. Where I live there are mountains carved with the faces of American presidents and Indian chiefs. When one looks at Medusa they "turn to stone". Most of that symbolism is personal to myself but the logo itself, the T and the S should be self-explanatory....like a christian cross made with the US dollar symbol. ($)

Al right I got it too..I bet you you can change the Medusa..:)
Turn 2 Stone..hmm influent...

So on what have you done with T2S..Hey Leyla
of course money is good thing.especially USD dollars signs.. :D .Hmm asking it its shame on you.. :)
hehehehehehehe..
Sorry I was just teasing..dont worry..:p

Ok...i got it, but that doesn't answer whether you think money is a good or bad thing? :o

I don't think anything is specifically a good or a bad thing. Everything is relevant to something else. That's what I mean when I say, "It's up for debate."

Like the saying goes: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

It's not money that is evil ..it's the greed and lies that are so present behind its movement. Technically there should be enough food and water for everyone on the planet without anyone having to pay a dime. Yet, some still go without.

I don't think anything is specifically a good or a bad thing. Everything is relevant to something else. That's what I mean when I say, "It's up for debate."

Like the saying goes: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

It's not money that is evil ..it's the greed and lies that are so present behind its movement. Technically there should be enough food and water for everyone on the planet without anyone having to pay a dime. Yet, some still go without.

GREAT POINT MY FRIEND....i couldn't have put it better myself.

Money instigates evil....it is not necessarily evil, but the way in which it has been ingraved into our lives has made it in an impossibility to live without. In England a person would have to work their whole life time to own a house, a concrete box. In the past we could just build huts where ever we could find a safe spot, to keep us out of the cold and harms way.

Now that we have assimilated into lean mean 24/7 working machines of the 21st century, we can't live like 'animals' no longer it seems (the words of a very wise president of the USA once had stated), to be honest i would prefer to live like a baboon then to behave like one (figure of speech :mahsum ), which is what i can say for some people.

Oh well, me moaning isn't going to change the world...so i might as well just move on.

Coffee anyone?

Coffee anyone?

Always time for café. The wine of the Sufi, as they say.

You know, I was once homeless, travelling around with a guitar on my back and during this time I realized how unimportant it was to have lots of material possesions. I've never really led what one would call an extravagant life but this experience made quite an impact on me that reflects to this day in the decisions I make.

I was without all the extras but I still had friends, love, a place to sleep, food to eat. I sometimes miss the life of a traveler but I'd go absolutely crazy without my computer so I'm compromising by putting together some music that will allow me to hit the road again.

(Incidentally, Leyla, I know you're not a big fan of Western music but that track I posted has been mastered as well as a home demo can be and the link is on the original post. I turned down the vocals just for you. My future tracks will delve further in to the ethereal planes as time progresses.)

~C*

Always time for café. The wine of the Sufi, as they say.

You know, I was once homeless, travelling around with a guitar on my back and during this time I realized how unimportant it was to have lots of material possesions.

I was without all the extras but I still had friends, love, a place to sleep, food to eat.

(Incidentally, Leyla, I know you're not a big fan of Western music but that track I posted has been mastered as well as a home demo can be and the link is on the original post. I turned down the vocals just for you.)

~C*


Firstly, WOW a travelling backpacker who is destined to follow the same road as Hz. Ali's path to enlightenment, i am actually quite inspired to write a book on this, you can be my muse even if it's not 100% how the story goes, it's the idea that is important :)

Secondly, Homelessness and poverty i think are the main factors in life that teach us so much about who you are and how the world works in mysterious ways. One minute your in your comfortable bed dreaming like there's no tomorrow, the next minute you're in some street corner wondering where it all went wrong. I'm not pretending to know what it feels like to be homeless or poor because i can see it all around me, at the train stations (sub way), on the street corners etc etc. Like my dad says their is nothing in the world that is as bad as sleeping on an empty stomach.

Thirdly, to have nothing and to still have everything is amazing. For example, you may not of had a home to live in or a warm bed to sleep in, yet you did have someone(s) who loved you. Everything else is just material anyway, material things never last. If i had a choice of being homeless but had a honerable life which included those who loved me, instead of being rich and have everyone hate me....i think the choice i would make is pretty clear.

And last but not least, for you to turn down the vocals just for me has shown me that respect never dies among those who are sincere. I was quite touched by this, so Thanks (but it wern't just for me...it was for everyone, trust me on that :p ). I have not yet listened to its changed version...but im sure that it sounds much much better, coming from your number one critique :p

Alevism teaches many things, but the main thing is that the love for humanity should never die. Yunus Emre and his universal love for humankind, is one of the forerunners of Anatolian humanism and with his travels from village to village often called a Sufi-dervish, he wrote:

Come, let us all be friends for once
Let us make life easy on us,
Let us be lovers and loved ones,
The earth shall be left to no one.
Yunus Emre

Here's something to debate.......IS THERE A SPECIFIC AGE FOR LEARNING SOMETHING NEW...OR dare i say it.....CHALLENGING?

I had this very heated discussion with a family member the other day...according to him...a person should learn how to play an instrument in his or her early teenage years...whereas i think it's a load of bull...since i don't believe there is a specific age for learning anything.

A person can learn how to do anything even if it's at an amuture level...the point is learning in the first place.

Are there things that cannot be learnt after a certain age? I need to know.

Just out of interest, do you socialise with other Alevi's or Bektasi people? or the question should be rather, are there Alevi people around that you can socialise with?

Apparently there is a Bektashi tekke located a couple of states away, near Detroit. First Albanian Bektashi Monastery, USA. They don't have much of a presence on the web though, nor do any sites that mention them. The Rifa'i Marufi Order has a few really decent websites and it makes me feel bad for the folks over in Michigan. Maybe I should contact them and see if they need some assistance. I have a bit of time for things like that.

I'd have to take a bit of a journey to go see the Baba but I think I probably will one of these days.

And, in reply to your question, I think the age limit for learning things is the day you lie rotting and stinking in the earth.

And, in reply to your question, I think the age limit for learning things is the day you lie rotting and stinking in the earth.

HAHA :komik agree with you 100%

Oh, and this Albanian Bektasi house, check it out and let us know...interesting...i wonder if it is similar? :höng There are lots lots lots of Albanians here, we call them AL-beni's (if only you understood Turkish) hehe.

I knew that there was Armenian Alevi's and Bektasi's but werent too sure of the Albanians.....well let me know anyway if you do descide to assist them :yorgun:

(if only you understood Turkish)

*smile*

I think I understand Turks, even if the language poses somewhat of a barrier for me at times. :yamukgul:

From what I gather, after Ataturk's reformation, the Bektashi hub moved from Turkey to Albania. When the communists took over Albania, America became a refuge for many of them and, thus, the birth of the Michigan tekke.

Now that the communists no longer hold power and the Turkish government moves towards secularity, I imagine many migrated back to Albania and Turkey, from wherever they found asylum, so.. the children of these people are probably the Al-benis you're talking about.

I'll keep you posted.

Peace, eh?!
~C*

Peace...??? what planet are you on....there is no such thing. Sorry don't know what your talking about (hehehe :D just teasing)

Peace...??? what planet are you on....there is no such thing. Sorry don't know what your talking about (hehehe :D just teasing)

Planet Funkybassline.
http://www.savefile.com/files/3582632 (http://www.savefile.com/files/3582632)

You might like this one better.


(Another track 2 without an intro but...a little more with it this time, I suppose.)

Also.. if anyone liked the Ney/Synth piece I did last winter... it's currently being aired in promotion of a book of Sufi poetry and is the background for The Song of The Reed Flute by Jalalu'ddin Rumi.

It's a very simple song and I was just doing something nice for somebody special when I made it...a way of communicating without words...I had no intention of distributing it all over the place but anyway....I adjusted the volume of the original instrumental so it's not so much in contrast with other songs:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1455454 (http://www.savefile.com/files/1455454)

For those of you who don't care for the clubbish sounding stuff like the song I posted above ..this may be more up your alley.

Just a simple meditational Ney piece.

Hello, Im from Sydney Australia and Im of KURDISH origin.
I never have had the expecirnce of learning Alevism although it is what I am traditionally.

Would somebody explain to me please.

Thanks, Dogan.

Just read the threads, bud :)

I was walking home coming back from university, and i came across an old blind afro-carabian guy... he was talking to himself, walking up and down with his stick tapping up and down as he chanted 'Can someone guide me to the way of Heaven', whilst others were walking on, avoiding this old guy...i grabbed his arm and said, 'yeah come with me'... the blind guy asked me 'Are you an Angel dear', i said 'Yeah, the closest you'll get sir, i'm the angel who's taking you for a coffee'...

...so i took him to the cafe part within tesco supermarket, sat him down and bought us two coffees and so forth... I asked him why he was so keen in finding Heaven, and he said the most amazing thing....

'I'm looking to find colour, my world might be dark lady... but i do not have to see in order to understand that there is no colour in the world' ... when he said this to me, i didn't know how to respond... it just shut my brain down, almost like an over drive of information. This blind mans philosophy was just out of this world, nothing like i've ever come across... can you imagine, a blind man knows that even with colour in the world... people still live in darkness... in picth black, dark tunnels that lead to no where...

...i asked him, how a man could enlighten himself with colour.... he said this, and i'll leave it to the rest of you to decide what he could have meant by it, it's just amazing....

''...if a man or woman cannot see the colour; than darkness will become second-nature, but if the man or woman refuses to see colour.... than they will be surrounded by darkness as if it were a disease, it is no different that suicide...''

I took my own interpretation to this response... but what do you think this old guy was implying people?

Thanks,

Leyla.

I was walking home coming back from university, and i came across an old blind afro-carabian guy... he was talking to himself, walking up and down with his stick tapping up and down as he chanted 'Can someone guide me to the way of Heaven', whilst others were walking on, avoiding this old guy...i grabbed his arm and said, 'yeah come with me'... the blind guy asked me 'Are you an Angel dear', i said 'Yeah, the closest you'll get sir, i'm the angel who's taking you for a coffee'...

...so i took him to the cafe part within tesco supermarket, sat him down and bought us two coffees and so forth... I asked him why he was so keen in finding Heaven, and he said the most amazing thing....

'I'm looking to find colour, my world might be dark lady... but i do not have to see in order to understand that there is no colour in the world' ... when he said this to me, i didn't know how to respond... it just shut my brain down, almost like an over drive of information. This blind mans philosophy was just out of this world, nothing like i've ever come across... can you imagine, a blind man knows that even with colour in the world... people still live in darkness... in picth black, dark tunnels that lead to no where...

...i asked him, how a man could enlighten himself with colour.... he said this, and i'll leave it to the rest of you to decide what he could have meant by it, it's just amazing....

''...if a man or woman cannot see the colour; than darkness will become second-nature, but if the man or woman refuses to see colour.... than they will be surrounded by darkness as if it were a disease, it is no different that suicide...''

I took my own interpretation to this response... but what do you think this old guy was implying people?

Thanks,

Leyla.

Probably, I think, this old man has an ability to see, but different than us, he sees what is inside of brains, souls, and hearts. The colour, I guess, could be meant us, us who cannot focus on what we are and what we have got deep inside. Our mental doubts and worries make us blind, and frustiation would come soon as he says "it is no different that suicide". we may try to find out what is real actually. I try to find out it by asking myself what will happen when I close my eyes for the last time to the world. Therefore, the point that I would like to come accross, he closed his eyes but he is still alive, he has been, and he sees what we cannot, what we refuse..

oh leyla, how cute of u to take that man to a coffe bar and to talk to him, everybody would pass him by, even i would, i admit.. i would never think about, grabbing somebody's arm and taking him to a place to talk to him. i think the same as you were astonished about what he said to you, the same he was astonished about your behaviopur: exactly this decision, to do something anybodyelse wouldn't even think of.
you deserve my whole respect, how nice of you, what a good girl you are. i hope this doesn't sound ironical, i really mean it.

i am very impressed of what that man said to you. are you still in touch with him or do you see him regularly on your way home? by the way, how old are you again? you are senay's sister, aren't you? i always thought you are much younger, don't tell me you already go to university? good girl, i'm so proud of you..

anyway, yes... what this man "sees" is something many many of us refuse to see. maybe he intended to say that life -no matter if you can see or not- is so full of colours, goodness and love but that the people are just too blind to see it and that they fall into the desease not to even search for it, to take the darkness so much for granted that they make others fall into blindness as well.

how sad and how true...


thanks for sharing this experience with us.

lots of love.

oh leyla, how cute of u to take that man to a coffe bar and to talk to him, everybody would pass him by, even i would, i admit.. i would never think about, grabbing somebody's arm and taking him to a place to talk to him. .
you must be ashamed of yourself:lol: :lol: :lol:

you must be ashamed of yourself:lol: :lol: :lol:

thanx for reminding me, özgür :)

to tell you the truth ,your ideas are similiar to mine

to tell you the truth ,your ideas are similiar to mine

ha! feel ashamed then!!!
hahahaha :P

Hi guys, I do see him... we've become good friends since i put that entry in... He is an amazing guy, i'd love for everyone to meet him... i make him sit through my lectures now and then (well twice so far) and he just shouts out when he doesn't agree or understand something... bless his heart...

...thanks for being proud of me... but to be frank, I would like to think that everyone would do this also...

This is how i see it, especially in London... we become so self consumed and so ignorant to see what is going on around us that we forget to see that there is a world outside of our own mental state... When i saw this guy, his name is Maxwell by the way... I didn't approach him because i felt sorry for him, i approached him like i would any other human being, like the friend said... he is alive but in a different sense to how i am, he sees the world even though he is blind, the difference is...he sees it in a different light, a different way. I was fascinated with what he was mumbling... so i just took the opportunity and grabbed him.

He is an amazing guy... i've never met anyone with so much wisdom... we always seem to look to our own, our cultural dede's and community representatives or our own father's in the hope of obtaining some sort of wisdom or enlightenment about things we can't understand in the world... but i seriously think we should aspire to think outside the box... don't you ever wonder what kind of a life the guy sitting opposite you on the bus or train has lived or is living... i don't mean the young ones with funky hair styles listening to their MP3s... i mean the middle or old aged man/woman, i've always been interested in having knowledge on experiences of others... the best way to know a human being is to share their wisdom and experience of the world through listening to them, and i mean sincerely listen...

Thanks guys, i'm glad you all took something out of it or just taking time to read it...

Take care my darlings.

"I am familiar with Turkish culture because I like the music, am fascinated by Eastern philosophy and religion and am told that people of Scandinavian descent, like myself, originally were refugees from Troy following Roman invasion."

Hi, thanks for your input. I was wondering however, what you see yourself as, for instance if someone was to say where are you from or what is your ehtnic background or what are your religious beliefs (if necessary) what would you say?

Now?

Heh...

i first, I would say that it seems, in fact, I am actually of Turkish descent

.....and not simply through the Trojan refugees
but, really, through the present day Turks from Mongolia and elswhere.

Specifically, in fact.... there is no other skull like this... teeth and feet, perhaps, but.... my skull....... is Anatolian.

Strange how the life can be.

So... in answer to your question, Leyla,
the ethnic group that I seem to fall into has been called, for better or worse, ... Melungeon.



Peace, all.

http://www.audiostreet.net/turn2stone