Hi everybody. Hope all is well. I am a 21 year old male living in the Washington DC area. I am originally Pakistani, with Iranian/Iraqi roots, and am Ithna-Ashari Shia, aka Twelver Shi'a. Although I don't practice the religion as much, I still maintain the belief in the Allah and the AhlulBait (as).
I am intrigued by other religions, and just started to read a lot about Allawis (the Syrian ones) and the Alevis in Turkey. I was surprised to read that the Alevis are 25% of Turkey's population. I had heard of the Allawis before as I had visited Damascus for the shrine of Bibi Zaynab. It's no wonder the shrines are protected in Syria, because of the Allawis.
I am interested to know more about your beliefs, rituals, etc. Are there any Alevis in the DC area? I have heard Alevis are allowed to drink alcohol, is that true? How do Alevis commemorate Muharram, and other days of martyrdom?
What's the difference between Allawis and Alevis? What's the orign of Alevi belief, does it have to do with Ibn Nusayr, hence the word Nusayri?

Thanks for the English forum, so we can talk more about our beliefs.

Ya Ali!

as far as I know , it is hard to get any agreement on the precise meaning of the term ''Alevi''

Hi everybody. Hope all is well. I am a 21 year old male living in the Washington DC area. I am originally Pakistani, with Iranian/Iraqi roots, and am Ithna-Ashari Shia, aka Twelver Shi'a. Although I don't practice the religion as much, I still maintain the belief in the Allah and the AhlulBait (as).
I am intrigued by other religions, and just started to read a lot about Allawis (the Syrian ones) and the Alevis in Turkey. I was surprised to read that the Alevis are 25% of Turkey's population. I had heard of the Allawis before as I had visited Damascus for the shrine of Bibi Zaynab. It's no wonder the shrines are protected in Syria, because of the Allawis.
I am interested to know more about your beliefs, rituals, etc. Are there any Alevis in the DC area? I have heard Alevis are allowed to drink alcohol, is that true? How do Alevis commemorate Muharram, and other days of martyrdom?
What's the difference between Allawis and Alevis? What's the orign of Alevi belief, does it have to do with Ibn Nusayr, hence the word Nusayri?

Thanks for the English forum, so we can talk more about our beliefs.

Ya Ali!

Hello DaSuper. Welcome.
Alevism is a very discussed topic in Turkey, and between the Alevis themselves. Alevism has been split up in our late history, by now consisting of 4 main systems:
1. The ones believing that Alevism is inside Islam
2. The ones believing it is outside Islam
3. The ones believing Alevism = Itha-Asheri Orthodox Shiism, but has been assimilated thanks to different factors, one of them being Bektashism (but not Haci Bektash himself - he has been misunderstood by the Bektashis).
4. The ones who see Alevism in very near connection with Socialism, and therefore more like an ideology/philosophy/way of living.

Investigating Alevism is therefore a quite difficult job, especially because of the very few and spread sources of the belief. There are also the fact, that many people who read books about Alevism do not seperate the historic and religious analysises. E.g: seen through the eyes of historians/scientists this is islam: a mix of judaism, hristianity and other pre-islamic arabic beliefs. That Muhammad was a prophet was probably a lie.
But seen through the eyes of the religion, the myths are absolutely true and Islam is Islam and nothing else. Unfortunately, the average Alevi has a problem in seperating these two things.
I can only present to you the Alevism that I represent; the one claiming to be inside Islam, furthermore TRUE ISLAM:
Alevis do their prayers in the Cem ceremonies, which are held in a building now called the Cemevi (meaning cem house). They do not use the traditional islamic prayers, the namaz. But namaz is still accepted as a prayer on the same level as the cem ceremonies, but why mostly Alevis do not stick to the namaz is a whole other discussion, which I will not mention any further.
Alevis believe in the 4 doors, 40 stages that need to be passed to achieve God. The 4 doors are: Seriat (Sharia), Tarikat, Marifet and Hakikat. Every door contains 10 stages, making a total of 40.
Alevis interpret the Quran with its internal (batini) meaning and not external (zahiri). The founder of the Safavid Dynasty, Shah Ismail I too belonged to the internalist Shiites (Alevis), and from his poems, we now that he also accepted the cem as a prayer (ibadet). He was supported by the Qizilbash (redheads), who were mainly Turcoman Alevis.
In the month of Muharram, Alevis fast and mourn in 10 days and ends the fasting by giving out the Ashura soup to friends and neighbours.
As far as I know, Alevism has nothing to do with ibn Nusayr. And despite the similarities between Alawism and Alevism, the two beliefs are said to have two different histories.

I hope this has helped you finding some answers.

Best regards
AleviKürt

This is the website that introduced me to Alevi culture:
www.alevism.net (http://www.alevism.net)

The pages are top notch and I have heard no arguments over the accuracy of the information contained therein.

So.. this is basically what it means for me and I'd add that Sufi philosphy, which, of course, is very ancient but found its main vehicle in Islam, is an integral and indispensable part of my faith.

Welcome...wassalaam.

p.s. I've heard that drinking is accepted but I don't. I used to but I don't.

Salams,

Thanks for your replies everybody.

AleviKurt, I really appreciate the details in your post. One question. What is the Alevi belief in Muhammad? Is Muhammad also God incarnate like Ali and the rest of the 11 Imams in Alevi belief? What about Imam Mehdi and do Alevis believe in his return?

Sorry for asking too many questions, but I get curious like that.

Salams,

Thanks for your replies everybody.

AleviKurt, I really appreciate the details in your post. One question. What is the Alevi belief in Muhammad? Is Muhammad also God incarnate like Ali and the rest of the 11 Imams in Alevi belief? What about Imam Mehdi and do Alevis believe in his return?

Sorry for asking too many questions, but I get curious like that.

Hello DaSuper, you're welcome. I'll try to answer your questions as good as I can.

The Alevis accept Muhammad as the last prophet of Islam. They believe that he had wished Hazrat Ali to succeed as caliph and they also believe that Imam Ali and prophet Muhammad was Musahip - a special brotherhood, which any Alevi should have with someone. The Musahips cannot marry the sisters of each other because they are considered family. They support and help each other and share anything with each other.
I'm sorry to point out a misunderstanding in your post my friend, but Alevis do not believe that God incarnated in any of the 12 imams. I do not know whether the Alawis of Syria (not to be mistaken with Alevis of Turkey) believes in this.
But the Alevis do however have some conflicting views in the belief of incarnation. In the Alevi source called Buyruk, we are told that God has been seen (by prophet Muhammad) in the shape of a woman several times on earth, but in another of our sources called Hüsniye, we learn that God can never be seen. I cannot help you further with this issue because I too have not found a final answer for this contradiction and because of the lack of Alevi sources, but I intend to find out when going to visit our Dede's in Turkey this year.

And yes, Alevis do believe in the dissappearence of Imam Mehdi and that he will return to bring back justice on earth.

Do not say sorry my friend. I am honoured to help you with your interest in our belief.

Best regards
AleviKürt

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, but I was confused, apparently it is the Allawis of Syria who have these beliefs of the 12 Imams being divine.

It seems by your responses that Alevis generally have the same beliefs as Ithna-Ashari Shias, though I am guessing maybe in practice we differ. For example in Muharram, we hit ourselves in mourning (due to the fact this is an Arab tradition), and I don't think the Alevis do that; and instead they fast and pray.

Another question. How is the status of Alevis currently in Turkey?

Thanks for your reply. Sorry, but I was confused, apparently it is the Allawis of Syria who have these beliefs of the 12 Imams being divine.

It seems by your responses that Alevis generally have the same beliefs as Ithna-Ashari Shias, though I am guessing maybe in practice we differ. For example in Muharram, we hit ourselves in mourning (due to the fact this is an Arab tradition), and I don't think the Alevis do that; and instead they fast and pray.

Another question. How is the status of Alevis currently in Turkey?

Hello again.
Yes I too think that the greatest differences between the Alevis and the Ithna-Ashari Shiites is in the practice, but also in the way we understand the belief. There are no compulsion in Alevism. Parents do not force their children to pray etc. and we think that it is more important that one truly loves the "path" and loves God, than just prays all the time with no will.

And there are also a difference in connection with our sources. E.g. one of our sources, the Buyruk are not acknowledged by the Itha-Ashari Shiites.

Alevism is more complicated than I've told you. Alevism has been mixed with Bektashism by time, and Alevis are also called Qizilbash (means redhead). The Qizilbash's were the supporters of the Safavid Dynasty and the Safavid Shah's.
But it is difficult seperately to define Bektashism, Alevism and Qizilbashism. If you want my own opinion, I would say that Qizilbashism = Alevism and that Bektashism is a belief that are quite similar to Alevism/Qizilbashism, and therefore have been mixed into / adopted by the Alevis/Qizilbash.
But Alevis are not orthodox Shiites, and in Northern Iraq one can find other heterodox people with strong connections to the Alevis; the Shabaks. And in Western Iran there are the Ali Allahis (or Ahl-i Haq).
The Alevis are also Sufis, like the Safavids. They do not think that paradise can be achieved by just praying and fasting (that's too easy). They think that the Quran possesses an inner meaning, and that one has to reach to the "Ultimate Truth".

The status of the Alevis in Turkey has been improved since the late 80's. But they have been victims of massacres many times (1938 Dersim, 1978 Maras, 1980 Corum, 1993 Sivas, 1995 Gazi - Istanbul). They were all state-controlled or state-supported (state rejects). Alevis was under Taqiyya until the Alevi revival of the 80'ies. They mainly support left-wing politics (right-wing of Turkey has the most anti-Alevi view).
The state still tries to assimilate the Alevis but in a more mild way compared to the history.

Best regards
AleviKürt

Bektashi....Sufi...etc.....

What of the Naqshbandi Order of Sufis, Kürt?

I have, on the net, seen them referred to, historically, as "Anti-Alevi". Do you know anything of this?

What of the Naqshbandi Order of Sufis, Kürt?

I have, on the net, seen them referred to, historically, as "Anti-Alevi". Do you know anything of this?

I don't know so much about them. But I do no that they were Anti-Alevi as you said, and that they were still allowed when the Bektashi Tariqat got forbidden, and that many Bektashi Tekkes were given to the Naqshibandi's during the Ottoman rule.

Sorry, but I haven't read so much about them.

I'll inform you when/if I run into good websites about this issue.

Thanks for your reply AleviKurt.

I am interested in your sources now. What are the origins of the Buyruk? Do Alevis read and follow the Nahjal-Balagha, an important book on Imam Ali's sayings? And what other sources do you guys have?

You mentioned that the state assimilates or tries to assimilate Alevis. How so?

It's interesting that you mentioned Qizilbash. Some of my distant relatives are Qizilbash and they live in Peshawar, Pakistan.

Thanks for helping me understand again, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask, I'll try my best to help you.

Thanks for your reply AleviKurt.

I am interested in your sources now. What are the origins of the Buyruk? Do Alevis read and follow the Nahjal-Balagha, an important book on Imam Ali's sayings? And what other sources do you guys have?

You mentioned that the state assimilates or tries to assimilate Alevis. How so?

It's interesting that you mentioned Qizilbash. Some of my distant relatives are Qizilbash and they live in Peshawar, Pakistan.

Thanks for helping me understand again, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask, I'll try my best to help you.

You're most welcome.

Hmm.. I don't know about the Nahcul Belaga. In the last cem ceremony that I observed, the Dede used this source. But I don't know if it is used traditionally, or just starting to be used.

Some of the sources we have are:
Buyruk, Vilâyat-nâme and Manâkibnâmes, Futuwwatnâme, Husniyye, Kumru, Fazîletnâme and Şarhu Hutbat al-bayân
But I only have 2 of these above mentioned sources. The Buyruk and Husniye. The Buyruk was used only by the Dedes until 1945 when it was translated and published for the first time. Now many Alevis have different sources at home.
I know that some sources were handed out to the Alevi population during the reign of Shah Ismail Safawi (1487 - 1524). The Buyruk could very possible be among these sources (I think it was).

The Turkish state build mosques in Alevi villages and send Sunni imams to be in charge of it. The Diyanet (Directorate of Religious Affairs) describe us as being "a Sunni branch of Islam" in their reports. The Prime Minister does not acknowledge Alevism as a belief, but states that it is a folk culture (or something like that). He also said that "If Alevism is to like Hazrat Ali, then I too am an Alevi", indicating an indirectly attempt on assimilation.
The Alevis have always had problems in Turkey/Ottoman Empire. They are seen as heretics or misbelievers. They have prejudice against us. We are accused of having orgies in our cem ceremonies because the cem's are normally held at night (fear of the state), with both men and women to join.
In old times, Dede's were tracked an arrested in their villages. Many of whom never returned.
There are many stories about the assimilation. Maybe that's why many Alevis did not join the Ottomans in killing Armenians during the Armenian Genocide, but on the other hand helped tens of thousands escape.

I see you know some Qiziblashis. I am very interested in the Qizilbash outside Turkey. How do they live? What are their mother tongue? Are there any differents between their beliefs and yours?

Best regards
AleviKürt

Hi Alevikurt,

First let me apologize for taking too long to reply, I'm usually very busy with school and work. By the way, do you go to school? What line of work are you in? Do you live in Turkey or somewhere else?

It's interesting because you would think with the advent of secularism in Turkey, minorities such as the Alevis would be better treated, since they are Turkish citizens, right? And they should have the full rights of the citizens, so it's a bit confusing to me why a secular government would be concerned with the beliefs of a minority group and try to assimilate them, as they were some sort of outsiders or immigrants. But then again, Sunnis have a long history of oppressing minorities starting from our Prophet to our Imams.

Yes, my mother's aunt's family is Qizilbash. They speak Pashto and Farsi. As far as I know, their beliefs are the same as ours, (Ithna-Ashari Shia), but I will have to confirm this with my mother. They seem to have themselves pretty integrated in Pakistani community. One thing which is different is that they bury their dead in coffins, which is not usually done in Islamic burial ritual. They want to eventually take thier dead back to Iran.

Are Dede's religious leaders in the Alevi community? What type of education do they go through? And what do Alevis do in Cem ceremonies?

If you ever have a chance you can read the Nahjul Balagha online:

http://al-islam.org/nahj/

Are Dede's religious leaders in the Alevi community?

Once upon a time dede's were religious leaders in alevi community:yorgun:

hello DaSuper nice seeing you here....

i have a shii friend from pakistan and another from afganistan and from what i've seen from them there is alot of difference between alevis and pakistani shii's. e.g alevis do not cut themselves during the month of muharrem. my pakistani shii friend would camp out in the college canteen for days because he was too scared to go home.



Are Dede's religious leaders in the Alevi community? What type of education do they go through? And what do Alevis do in Cem ceremonies?


yes dede's are religiour leaders in alevi rituals... however the amount of respect given to Dedes is decreasing unfortunetly. the Dede title is inherited in other words you must belong to a Dede family in order to become a Dede. the education process under gone by Dedes are very private as they are taught by their Dede relatives (granfather, father, uncle etc). it is believed that the blood line of Dede families can be traced back to the family of the prophet.

Hi Alevikurt,

First let me apologize for taking too long to reply, I'm usually very busy with school and work. By the way, do you go to school? What line of work are you in? Do you live in Turkey or somewhere else?

Hi DaSuper.
Don't apologize. I hope the best for your school work.
I don't live in Turkey. I'm a immigrant in Denmark - from Turkey. I am at the last year at the "gymnasium", something that correspond to the American senior high school/upper secondary school(?).


It's interesting because you would think with the advent of secularism in Turkey, minorities such as the Alevis would be better treated, since they are Turkish citizens, right? And they should have the full rights of the citizens, so it's a bit confusing to me why a secular government would be concerned with the beliefs of a minority group and try to assimilate them, as they were some sort of outsiders or immigrants. But then again, Sunnis have a long history of oppressing minorities starting from our Prophet to our Imams.

Yes you are right, but even though Turkey is secularized, the state controls the Religious Affairs (which only takes cares of the Sunni "needs"). The Turkish-Islamic Synthese from 1980 sunnified the turkishness. Therefore you could say that the Turkish State is Sunni. This means that the state is not 100% secular. But Turkey being secularized has also made it ALOT easier for Alevis to be Alevis compared to the Ottoman Empire.


Yes, my mother's aunt's family is Qizilbash. They speak Pashto and Farsi. As far as I know, their beliefs are the same as ours, (Ithna-Ashari Shia), but I will have to confirm this with my mother. They seem to have themselves pretty integrated in Pakistani community. One thing which is different is that they bury their dead in coffins, which is not usually done in Islamic burial ritual. They want to eventually take thier dead back to Iran.

Wow.. I didn't know that. But the ancestors of the Qizilbash you know could very possible have been heterodox Shiites (Alevis) that had undergone a orthodoxation in/during the Safavid Dynasty.
As far as I know, the founder of the Safavid Empire, Shah Ismail I, was also an Alevi. But the later Safavids were not.

Are Dede's religious leaders in the Alevi community? What type of education do they go through? And what do Alevis do in Cem ceremonies?

Our friend Canan has given an excellent answer to your questions, which I agree with.
I can tell you some of the things that take place in Cem (typical Cem ceremonies normally take about 10 hours):
During the Cem ceremonies, the Dede teach us history, good manners, and the persons present pray to God. Hymns are sung, people cry for the martyrs etc. And the holy "dance" semah, whirling ecstatic/transcendent movements, is made. This type of dancing are also seen with Sheikh Safi al-Din (ancestor of Shah Ismail & the founder of the Safawi Sufi Order).
The meat of a sacrified animal (with the dua of the Dede) is also often being eaten at the end of the Cem ceremony.

By the way, I would add, that the fact that Dedes have to descent from the prophet, is also a typical Shia element.


If you ever have a chance you can read the Nahjul Balagha online:

http://al-islam.org/nahj/
Thanks for the link. I'll look at it, and maybe buy it in Turkey.

hello DaSuper nice seeing you here....

i have a shii friend from pakistan and another from afganistan and from what i've seen from them there is alot of difference between alevis and pakistani shii's. e.g alevis do not cut themselves during the month of muharrem. my pakistani shii friend would camp out in the college canteen for days because he was too scared to go home.

Yes, it seems that the cutting of the body is done by the Shias in Pakistan and the Middleeast. But this is not mandatory. I have never done that, nor do I plan on doing it. I usually just beat my chest with the palm of my hand, but never used any knives or chains to do it. It's unfortunate for your Pakistani friend, he must come from a very strict Shi'a family if he was scared to go home, although most Shi'a families than I encounter are very lenient and don't force such things.




yes dede's are religiour leaders in alevi rituals... however the amount of respect given to Dedes is decreasing unfortunetly. the Dede title is inherited in other words you must belong to a Dede family in order to become a Dede. the education process under gone by Dedes are very private as they are taught by their Dede relatives (granfather, father, uncle etc). it is believed that the blood line of Dede families can be traced back to the family of the prophet.

Ahh, so the Dede families are Sayyid, which means descendent of the Prophet. I myself am descended from Imam Musa al-Kazim (as). How do you pronounce Dede? Is it like Deed?

Hi DaSuper.
Don't apologize. I hope the best for your school work.
I don't live in Turkey. I'm a immigrant in Denmark - from Turkey. I am at the last year at the "gymnasium", something that correspond to the American senior high school/upper secondary school(?)

Ahh, so you must be around 18, 19 years old then?


Wow.. I didn't know that. But the ancestors of the Qizilbash you know could very possible have been heterodox Shiites (Alevis) that had undergone a orthodoxation in/during the Safavid Dynasty.
As far as I know, the founder of the Safavid Empire, Shah Ismail I, was also an Alevi. But the later Safavids were not

It is very possible. The Qizilbash seem to very diverse with Afghan,Persian, and Turkish blood in them.

Our friend Canan has given an excellent answer to your questions, which I agree with.
I can tell you some of the things that take place in Cem (typical Cem ceremonies normally take about 10 hours):
During the Cem ceremonies, the Dede teach us history, good manners, and the persons present pray to God. Hymns are sung, people cry for the martyrs etc. And the holy "dance" semah, whirling ecstatic/transcendent movements, is made. This type of dancing are also seen with Sheikh Safi al-Din (ancestor of Shah Ismail & the founder of the Safawi Sufi Order).
The meat of a sacrified animal (with the dua of the Dede) is also often being eaten at the end of the Cem ceremony.

Very interesting. 10 hours is too long for me, lol. How are prayers done in Cem ceremonies? Any videos or pictures of the dancing or audio of the hymns? There's a lot of Sufi influence here, and please don't be offended by the next question. Any partakings in hashish or marijuana during these Cem ceremonies? a lot of Sufis in Pakistan do that. (I myself, am a very habitual marijuana smoker).

By the way, I would add, that the fact that Dedes have to descent from the prophet, is also a typical Shia element.

I don't quite understand. Shia religious leaders typically are both, decendants and non-descendants. You can tell by the color of their turban. Black=descendant, White=Non-descendant.

Thanks for the link. I'll look at it, and maybe buy it in Turkey.

No problem.

I was reading an article a few days back on the Allawis in Syria and how some of them have actually gone to Qum and Najaf to study with the Shi'a scholars there. I don't suppose, such contacts have been made between the Alevis and the Shia of Najaf and Qom?

Once upon a time dede's were religious leaders in alevi community:yorgun:

What happened now?

Hi there people. i have been reading through since i have clicked on Shia forums in google and refered to this site strait ahead.
I have read all the comments and articles writen by Kurt and asked by da super.
I would like to takes this oppertunity to greet both users for the very interesting questions that Da super has asked and very common sensed answers that the kurt has written.
i am new here. ive tried registering but keeps on giving an error dont know why. but then again wanted to introduce my self as an guest.
I would love to join here aswell to share thoughts and regain any experiances within to do with alevisim, shism and etc...
i was a common use in shiachat.com but for some reason had to leave that site for some reason. Such as knowledgeless people ruling the site.
Anyway salam again. If i would get registered, My nick is London_Alevi. thanks...

Welcome London_Alevi and DaSuper to Alevi forum, it gives me great honour that more foreign guests are joining onto the forum outside the turkish community, i am sure you both will be openly welcomed by all. as for London_Alevi if you could be a bit more specific on the point at which you encountered these difficulties. i should be able to assist you in the registration of the forum.

Best regards
Caner

Hi there people. i have been reading through since i have clicked on Shia forums in google and refered to this site strait ahead.
I have read all the comments and articles writen by Kurt and asked by da super.
I would like to takes this oppertunity to greet both users for the very interesting questions that Da super has asked and very common sensed answers that the kurt has written.
i am new here. ive tried registering but keeps on giving an error dont know why. but then again wanted to introduce my self as an guest.
I would love to join here aswell to share thoughts and regain any experiances within to do with alevisim, shism and etc...
i was a common use in shiachat.com but for some reason had to leave that site for some reason. Such as knowledgeless people ruling the site.
Anyway salam again. If i would get registered, My nick is London_Alevi. thanks...

Hello and welcome London_Alevi. Do you have problems logging in, or problems getting registered?
I will be happy to help you as good as I can with Alevism.

But before we start you have to now, that learning Alevism is not as simple as it was in the past.. Shah Hatayi has explained this brilliantly in one of his poems:

If You Can Distinguish Them, Come Forward


The Truth is locked away in secrecy--
If you can open it, come forward;
Behold--there is faith in blasphemy--
If you can distinguish them, come forward.

The gates of Paradise are open;
You can see it is made of gems and rubies;
The bridge which gets you there is thinner than a hair--
If you can cross over it, come forward.

Our lives are those of angels
and our bodies are the purest of the pure;
What I drink is the blood of the lion*--
If you can drink it too, come forward.

I took advice from my Teacher;
I learned many lessons from my Master;
After that I even bound my wings and flew--
If you can fly, come forward.

I am the rose in the garden;
I am the nightingale in the sacred ceremony
I am the key to Four Doors**--
If you can open them, come forward.

Shah Hatayi is content in what he knows.
A mystic fog lay over the high mountains.
Here is the Bible, here is the Quran—
If you can distinguish them, come forward

*Ali is considered the lion of Allah.

** Within each of the Four Doors (Gateways) of Islam (Sharia, Tariqua, Marifa, Haqiqa) there are ten stations (makams) of maturity on the path to becoming a Perfect Human Being. The saints are those who pass all Forty doors.

Source: pirihorasani's topic --> http://www.anafilya.org/go.php?go=7d522c01507aa